This Might help Muslims begin to understand . . .

. . . But only if you really listen to the whole presentation without stoping to criticize and if you also listen to the rest of the series here. (see links to parts 2-6 at bottom)

And also, if the Spirit of God gives you spiritual ears to hear in your heart and give you repentance to the true God.

Pastor Piper does not say anything about Islam, so a Muslim cannot say that this is a Tu quoque (“You Too!”) argument.  It is more about “first steps” in understanding the Incarnation, Atonement, and the Trinity.

The last half is especially important; the part about God being love (see 1 John 4:8-21 – there is no love without the doctrines of the Father and the Son and their relationship of giving to humans in the incarnation and the propitiatory atonement through the working of the Holy Spirit in hearts of people from all nations.  See also John 14; 16; and Revelation 5:9)  and the most loving thing God can do is give Himself to you in spiritual relationship and spiritual joy; and that it is loving for God to seek to glorify Himself in all things – this all is profound and helps explain the doctrines of the Incarnation and the Trinity.

Addendum:

One of the reasons I say this might help Muslims understand is because of what happened earlier at Paul Bilal Williams blog.

Paul Williams, a Muslim, accused Anthony Rogers of committing the logical fallacy of Tu Quoque (Latin: “You Also” ) – but it was Paul’s article on supposed inherent idolatry in Christianity that seemed to be a response to Anthony’s first article,

http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2013/06/paul-williams-unknown-and-unknowable-god.html

“Paul Williams Unknown and Unknowable God”, which is an answer to Paul’s post on my posting the hilarious video on heresies of the Trinity. (at a different blog that I sometimes post on, called “Beggar’s All Reformation”.)

Anthony’s first article in this series – that the god of Islam is unknowable is not committing the “you Too” fallacy, because scholarly Sunni Islam admits that Allah is unknowable as a person, whereas the heart of Christianity is that God glorifies Himself by giving Himself to His people from all nations by the incarnation and atonement, and that self-giving love and glorification is only known through the incarnation and atonement, and so, these truths help explain the Trinity.

So we say God is Trinitas Unitas (Three in One), because God is Love (1 John 4:8-21); and since even Abbas admitted, “God is not love; rather He created love”, then Anthony’s first article was not “tu quoque”.

Abbas wrote:
“God is above Love and is not Love but created Love.”

The last comment as of this moment at the St. Patrick’s bad analogies post:

http://bloggingtheology.wordpress.com/2013/06/03/st-patricks-bad-analogies/#comment-13227

Advertisements

About Ken Temple

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a sinner who has been saved by the grace of God alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16), in Christ alone (John 14:6). But a true faith does not stay alone, it should result in change, fruit, good works, and deeper levels of repentance and hatred of my own sins of selfishness and pride. I am not better than you! I still make mistakes and sin, but the Lord is working on me, conforming me to His character. (Romans 8:28-29; 2 Corinthians 3:16-18) When I do sin, I hate the sin as it is an affront to God, and seek His forgiveness in repentance. (Mark 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:7-10; Colossians 3:5-16 ) Praise God for His love for sinners (Romans 5:8), shown by the voluntary coming of Christ and His freely laying down His life for us (John 10:18), becoming flesh/human (John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8), dying for sins of people from all nations, tribes, and cultures (Revelation 5:9), on the cross, in history, rising from the dead (Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 28, Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24; John 20-21; 1 Corinthians chapter 15). His resurrection from the dead proved that Jesus is the Messiah, the eternal Son of God, the word of God from eternity past; and that He was all the gospels say He was and that He is truth and the life and the way to salvation. (John 14:6)
This entry was posted in Apologetics, Islam, The doctrine of the Trinity. Bookmark the permalink.

68 Responses to This Might help Muslims begin to understand . . .

  1. Ken Temple says:

    Notice I wrote, “seemed”.

    Anyway, everything here is relevant because it all started from my posting the hilarious video of the Irish cartoon characters about the heresies of the Trinity, which you responded to; which Anthony then responded to. The answers to your questions are within his first article, which is not tu quoque; and in the above video message by John Piper.

    Did you listen to Piper’s teaching first?

    • Ken Temple says:

      I watched the video again, as a courtesy to you; and that is only a linguistic / phonetic argument – it is not a doctrinal argument.

      You see I have no problem with the word itself, “Allah” الله as I recognize that word as the best equivalent to translate the Hebrew Elohim אלהימ in the OT and Theos θεος in the NT for Arabs and other Muslims who use that word as the one true eternal, invisible, creator, sovereign God.

    • Ken Temple says:

      I answered at your blog; but I will repeat here also:

      Jesus is one Divine Person, with 2 natures, and He is not to be divided. It is not idolatry because our Christian sciences of interpretation and theology say it is not idolatry. علم تفسیر مسیحی (Farsi form of “the Christian science of interpretation”)

    • Ken Temple says:

      Which Piper books did you read, and when did you read them? and did you read the whole books?

      when exactly was it that you claim to have been a Christian and went to a church?
      How many years?

      Your leaving Christ and rejecting Him proves you never were really born-again by the Spirit of God. (Matthew 7:21-23; I John 2:19; 2 Peter 2:21-22)

  2. Ken Temple says:

    I already watched that a long time ago, when you first posted it.

    Problem with it is that it ultimately, by rejecting the incarnation, atonement, Trinity, love and grace and message of the NT (the true Injeel), it (a Jewish affirmation of Islam) ultimately remains stuck in the OT without the NT (Injeel) Revelation. Islam then comes 600 years later and claims that the Injeel is perfect and not corrupted(Surah 5:47; 10:94), yet doesn’t understand anything about the message of the Injeel; then goes back to the OT law of Moses and the harsh punishments and seeks to force the whole world to submit to Islam (9:5; 9:29), taking the OT commands only for Israel, only for that time, and only for that little piece of land, and applying them to today (wrong); and Islam has been trying to make war and subjugate everyone else by unjust war and evil laws of apostasy and spawning Jihadism / Islamism and Islamic terror like Al Qaeda and Anjem Choudary and Bakri (? whatever his name is) and the guy in London who cut someone’s head off.

    Even if only 10 or 5 or 2 % of the Muslims of the world agree with these modern Islamic terror movements, that is still a lot of people; and they should be stopped.

  3. Ken Temple says:

    I already answered twice:
    I answered at your blog; but I will repeat here also:

    Jesus is one Divine Person, with 2 natures, and He is not to be divided. It is not idolatry because our Christian sciences of interpretation and theology say it is not idolatry. علم تفسیر مسیحی (Farsi form of “the Christian science of interpretation”)

  4. Ken Temple says:

    Science? – I would not call theology a science.

    See, you just did what I was talking about when you said, “I would not call theology a science”. (that is what I mentioned in everyday street modern English parlance; but theology was considered a science last century and earlier. )

    Islam considers it a science, ; and I am very surprised you don’t know that; and the proper translation of علم is “science” as the plural علوم is “sciences” and they use these terms when dealing with how their scholars interpret texts.

    I am not an Iranian, but I learned Farsi by reaching out to Iranians for over the past 20 years, having them in my home, eating their food, visiting them in their homes, talking, listening, learning their language and poetry and history and pain, etc. as I have also interacted for 10 years before that with Arabs, and other Muslims, Americans, Africans, Central Asians, Turks, Pakistanis, Indians, in NY city, Dearborn and other places in the USA from 1983 -1993. So I do have sincere love for Muslims and hate and reject all racial prejudice and hatred as sin.

  5. Ken Temple says:

    Jesus has a glorified body after His resurrection and ascension to heaven. How all that works together is a mystery.

    • Ken Temple says:

      One cannot make such a statement by itself, as Jesus is One person with 2 natures, although His human nature is glorified.

      That is the Christian study/method of knowledge/science of theology. you keep just repeating the same question when I have already answered you. How the human nature Christ changed when it was glorified in the resurrection is a mystery.

  6. Ken Temple says:

    already answered that. Have a good weekend.

  7. Sam Shamoun says:

    Brother Ken,

    Here is a series of rebuttals which thoroughly decimate Williams’ recent post concerning the “Jewish” understanding of salvation. So enjoy my brother!

    I am starting to think that you really are beyond the hope of repentance. Here are the fully detailed responses to your perversion of Scriptures. So enjoy!

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/ninevites.html

    http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Menj/atonement1.htm

    http://answering-islam.org/Responses/Menj/atonement2.htm

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/ibnanwar/sacrifice_satan1.html

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/ibnanwar/sacrifice_satan2.html

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/ibnanwar/sacrifice_satan3.html

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/ibnanwar/sacrifice_satan4.html

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/kunde/distortions2.html

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/obtain_salvation.html

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/obtain_salvation2a.html

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/obtain_salvation2b.html

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/death_necessary1.html

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/death_necessary2.html

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/baptist_exposes1.html

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/baptist_exposes2.html

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zaatari/forgiven_without_cross.html

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/ally/allah_ransom1.html

    http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/ally/allah_ransom2.html

  8. Paul Williams, Ken has answered you, Anthony Rogers has answered you, I have answered you on your blog but you either blocked or deleted the comment.

    You have set up a false dilemma so therefore your question is irrational. You even had to do what your quran says you should not do. “Woe to those who write the scripture with their own hands and say this is from Allah” by re wording Romans 1.

    Paul since we Christians are not stumped by your irrational question, your false dilemma. Since we have answered you maybe you can now take the time to answer mine questions.

    1. What is the form of Allah you have in your mind? I’m sure we all want to know what your allah looks like.

    2. Paul do you follow the Mu‘tazilah; that God’s attributes had no existence distinguishable from His essence, but rather they emanated from the essence of God: God willed from His essence, and He knew from His essence. Or do you believe the Sunni version of Allah?

  9. Sam Shamoun says:

    As you can see Rad, Williams is more interested in attacking straw man since in his warped mind he actually thinks no one is capable of answering, despite the fact he has been answered over and over again.

    We worshiped the one Person of Jesus Christ who is both 100% God and 100% man and the reason is simple. Jesus is an eternal divine Person who took on flesh. Therefore, what makes him worthy of worship and devotion is the fact that he is truly God, an eternal divine Person who has now become embodied for us and our redemption.

    This is no more idolatrous than when the OT prophets and saints worshiped God in his various manifestations and appearances, some of which included assuming human form so that others may see him. For a detailed discussion see my response to William’s distortion of Scripture: http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/good_logic2.html

    And this is no more idolatrous than the Israelites bowing down to the Temple in Jerusalem because they knew that God’s presence and name dwelt there in a unique manner: http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/kabah_idol2.html

    What makes this interesting is that the verb which John uses to denote the fact that the eternal Logos/Word came to dwell among us as flesh, i.e. “the Word became flesh and DWELT among us,” is eskenosen and literally means “pitched his tent/tabernacled.” John is therefore describing Jesus’ physical body as theTabernacle/Temple of God, thereby connecting it with the OT Tabernacle/Temple of Jerusalem where God lived. In fact, Jesus himself called his physical body a Temple since he told the Jews that if they destroyed his Temple he would raise it up in three days (cf. John 2:19-22). This again confirms what I just said that worshiping Jesus who has become enfleshed, embodied, is no more idolatrous than the Israelites worshiping God by looking and bowing towards the Tabernacle/Temple. BTW, you will finda more detailed explanation of this in the second link which I provided

    Again Rad, William’s silly and false dilemma has been refuted over and over again, but due to his Muhammadanism and hatred of the Lord Jesus, his God and Muhammad’s Judge, he will not and cannot accept the truth. So don’t waste your breath trying to convince this stone worshiper.

    Now Rad, watch how in the next posts I turn this argument against Williams proving that both he and his prophet are/were nothing more than pagans who stand condemned by the true God.

    • Sam Shamoun says:

      As you can see Rad, Williams is more interested in attacking straw man since in his warped mind he actually thinks no one is capable of answering, despite the fact he has been answered over and over again.

      We worshiped the one Person of Jesus Christ who is both 100% God and 100% man and the reason is simple. Jesus is an eternal divine Person who took on flesh. Therefore, what makes him worthy of worship and devotion is the fact that he is truly God, an eternal divine Person who has now become embodied for us and our redemption.

      This is no more idolatrous than when the OT prophets and saints worshiped God in his various manifestations and appearances, some of which included assuming human form so that others may see him. For a detailed discussion see my response to William’s distortion of Scripture: http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/williams/good_logic2.html

      And this is no more idolatrous than the Israelites bowing down to the Temple in Jerusalem because they knew that God’s presence and name dwelt there in a unique manner: http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/kabah_idol2.html

      What makes this interesting is that the verb which John uses to denote the fact that the eternal Logos/Word came to dwell among us as flesh, i.e. “the Word became flesh and DWELT among us,” is eskenosen and literally means “pitched his tent/tabernacled.” John is therefore describing Jesus’ physical body as theTabernacle/Temple of God, thereby connecting it with the OT Tabernacle/Temple of Jerusalem where God lived. In fact, Jesus himself called his physical body a Temple since he told the Jews that if they destroyed his Temple he would raise it up in three days (cf. John 2:19-22). This again confirms what I just said that worshiping Jesus who has become enfleshed, embodied, is no more idolatrous than the Israelites worshiping God by looking and bowing towards the Tabernacle/Temple. BTW, you will finda more detailed explanation of this in the second link which I provided

      Again Rad, William’s silly and false dilemma has been refuted over and over again, but due to his Muhammadanism and hatred of the Lord Jesus, his God and Muhammad’s Judge, he will not and cannot accept the truth. So don’t waste your breath trying to convince this stone worshiper.

      Now Rad, watch how in the next posts I turn this argument against Williams proving that both he and his prophet are/were nothing more than pagans who stand condemned by the true God.

  10. Sam Shamoun says:

    Rad, could be so kind as to get Williams to explain why do Muslims bow down towards the Kabah and why do they kiss and smother a black stone as part of the rites of pilgrimage? Doesn’t this prove that Muslims such as Williams are pagans for worshiping inanimate objects that do not not contain the presence of God, unlike the Temple in Jerusalem and the physical body of the Lord Jesus? In fact, I will repost my entire article on this subject, with the hopes that Williams will overcome his shame and cowardice and actually defend these pagan and idolatrous practices:

    According to the traditional Islamic view the following verses are exhorting Muslims to face the Kabah in Mecca and bow to it when they perform their five daily prayers:

    We have seen thee turning thy face about in the heaven; now We will surely turn thee to a direction that shall satisfy thee. Turn thy face towards the Holy Mosque; and wherever you are, turn your faces towards it. Those who have been given the Book know it is the truth from their Lord; God is not heedless of the things they do. Yet if thou shouldst bring to those that have been given the Book every sign, they will not follow thy direction; thou art not a follower of their direction, neither are they followers of one another’s direction. If thou followest their caprices, after the knowledge that has come to thee, then thou wilt surely be among the evildoers whom We have given the Book, and they recognize as they recognize their sons, even though there is a party of them conceal the truth and that wittingly. S. 2:144-146

    From whatsoever place thou issuest, turn thy face towards the Holy Mosque; and wherever you may be, turn your faces towards it, that the people may not have any argument against you, excepting the evildoers of them; and fear you them not, but fear you Me; and that I may perfect My blessing upon you, and that haply so you may be guided; S. 2:150

    And when We settled for Abraham the place of the House: ‘Thou shall not associate with Me anything. And do thou purify My House for those that shall go about it and those that stand, for those that bow and prostrate themselves; S. 22:26

    According to the Quran prostration is an act of worship since it is directly connected to the service or worship that must be rendered to Allah:

    Surely those who are with thy Lord wax not too proud to serve Him (‘ibadatihi); they chant His praise, and to Him they bow (yasjudoona). S. 7:206

    And of His signs are the night and the day, the sun and the moon. Bow not yourselves (la tasjudoo) to the sun and moon, but bow yourselves (wa-osjudoo) to God who created them, if Him you serve (ta-abudoona). S. 41:37

    Rather prostrate yourselves (fa-osjudoo) before Allah and serve (wa-oabudoo). S. 53:62 Pickthall

    Why, then, are Muslims bowing to a pagan shrine which at one time housed 360 idols?

    CCX: Say: ‘Truth has come and falsehood has vanished. Falsehood is always bound to vanish.'” (17:81)

    “Vanish” means to be destroyed.

    4443. It is related that ‘Abdullah ibn Mas’ud said, “The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, entered Makka and there were three hundred and sixty idols around the Ka’ba. He began to poke them with a stick in his hand, saying, ‘Truth has come and falsehood has vanished’ (17:81) and ‘The Truth has come. Falsehood cannot originate or regenerate.'(34:49)” (Aisha Bewley, The Sahih Collection of Al-Bukhari, Chapter 68. Book of Tafsir: *; *)

    See also Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan’s version of Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 6, Book 60, Number 244.

    And let us not forget that there were other pagan Kabahs at the time of Muhammad which the idolators built for their gods and goddesses:

    CLI: Burning houses and palm-trees

    2857. It is related that Qays ibn Abi Hazim said, “Jarir said to me, ‘The Messenger of Allah said to me, “Will you not relieve me of Dhu’l-Khalasa?”‘ which was a house of Khath’am which was called the Yamani Ka’ba. ‘I set out with one hundred and fifty horsemen from Ahmas. They are good horsemen. I could not sit firm on a horse and he (the Prophet) struck me in my chest so that I saw the marks of his fingers on my chest. He said, “O Allah, make him firm and make him a guided guide.”‘ He went to it, broke it up and burnt it. Then he sent the news to the Messenger of Allah. Jarir’s messenger said, ‘By the One who sent you with the truth, I did not come to you until I left it as if it was an emaciated – or scabby – camel.’ He said, ‘May Allah bless the horses and riders of Ahmas’ five times.”

    And:

    CLXXXVIII: Good news of victories

    2911. It is related that Qays said, “Jarir ibn ‘Abdullah said to me, ‘The Messenger of Allah said to me, “Will you not relieve me from Dhu’l-Khalasa?”‘ which was a house where Khath’am stayed which was called the Yamani Ka’ba I set out with one hundred and fifty horsemen from Ahmas. They are good horsemen. I told the Prophet that I could not sit firm on a horse and he (the Prophet) struck me in my chest so that I saw the marks of his fingers on my chest and said, “O Allah, make him firm and make him a guided guide.”‘ He went to it, smashed it and burnt it down. Then he sent the good news to the Messenger of Allah. Jarir’s messenger said, ‘By the One who sent you with the truth, I did not come to you until I left it as if it was a scabby camel.’ He said, ‘May Allah bless the horses and riders of Ahmas’ five times.” (Bewley, Sahih Al-Bukhari, Chapter 61. Book of Jihad and Military Expeditions: *; *http://www.sunnipath.com/library/Hadith/H0002P0061.aspx; underline emphasis ours)

    Therefore, to bow towards any of these pagan shrines was to bow down in worship to the gods and goddesses which these places were built for.

    The Kabah as the dwelling place of Allah

    Do Muslims bow down to the Kabah because Allah actually dwells there? Is the Kabah the earthly place where Allah has chosen to live, being the house that he made for his glory and name to reside in forever?

    If so then how do Muslims explain the fact that the Quran says that Allah, like the angels, dwells in heaven above?

    Do you feel secure that He who is IN heaven (man FEE al-sama-i) will not cause the earth to swallow you, the while it rocks? Do you feel secure that He who is IN heaven (man FEE al-sama-i) will not loose against you a squall of pebbles, then you shall know how My warning is? S. 67:16-17

    Contrast this with what is said regarding those who are in the heavens:

    How many an angel there is IN the heavens (malakin FEE al-samawati) whose intercession avails not anything, save after that God gives leave to whomsoever He wills and is well-pleased. S. 53:26

    Whatever is IN the heavens (FEE al-samawati) and the earth glorifies Allah; and HE is the Mighty, the Wise. S. 57:1

    The hadiths record that there are seven heavens inhabited by prophets and angels, and that there is a house located in the highest heaven:

    … Then he ascended with me to the sixth heaven and asked for it to be opened. It was asked, ‘Who is this?’ He answered, ‘Jibril.’ It was asked, ‘Who is with you?’ He replied, ‘Muhammad.’ It was asked, ‘Has he been sent for?’ He said, ‘Yes.’ It was said, ‘Welcome to him! What an excellent visitor has come!’ It opened and when I arrived, Musa was there. He said, ‘This is Musa, so greet him.’ I greeted him and he returned the greeting and then said, ‘Welcome to a righteous brother and a righteous Prophet!’ When I passed on, he wept. He was asked, ‘Why are you weeping?’ He replied, ‘I am weeping because more of the community of this lad who was sent after me will enter the Garden than those of my community!’

    Then he ascended with me to the seventh heaven and Jibril asked for it to be opened. It was asked, ‘Who is this?’ He answered, ‘Jibril.’ It was asked, ‘Who is with you?’ He answered, ‘Muhammad.’ It was said, ‘Has he been sent for?’ He answered, ‘Yes.’ It was said, ‘Welcome to him! What an excellent visitor has come!’ It opened and when I arrived, Ibrahim was there. He said, “This is your father, so greet him.’ I greeted him and he returned the greeting and said, ‘Welcome to a righteous son and a righteous Prophet!’

    Then I was shown the Lote-tree of the Limit. Its fruits were like the pots of Hajar, and its leaves were like elephant ears. He said, ‘This is the Lote-tree of the Limit.’ There were four rivers: two hidden rivers and two apparent rivers. I asked, ‘What are these two, Jibril?’ and he said, ‘The two hidden ones are in the Garden, and the two apparent ones are the Nile and Euphrates.’ Then the Inhabited House was shown to me. Every day seventy thousand angels enter it. Then I was brought a vessel of wine, a vessel of milk and a vessel of honey. I took the milk and he said, ‘It is the natural form (fitra) which you and your community have.’

    Then fifty prayers every day were made obligatory for me. I returned and passed by Musa who asked, ‘What are you commanded?’ I replied, ‘I am commanded fifty prayers a day.’ He said, ‘Your community will not be able to do fifty prayers a day. I tested people before you. I tried as hard as I could with the tribe of Israel. So back to your Lord and ask Him to reduce it for your community.’ I went back and He lessened it by ten for me. Then I returned to Musa and he said the same thing. I went back and He lessened it by ten for me. Then I returned to Musa and he said the same thing. I went back and He lessened it by ten for me. Then I went to Musa and he said the like of it. Then I went back and was commanded ten prayers every day. I went back and he said the like of it. Then I went back and was commanded five prayers every day. I went back to Musa and he said, ‘What have you been commanded?’ I said, “I have been commanded five prayers every day.’ He said, ‘Your community will not able to do five prayers every day. I tested people before you. I tried as hard as I could with the tribe of Israel. So back to your Lord and ask Him to reduce it for your community.’ I said, ‘I have asked my Lord until I am embarrassed, but I am content and have submitted.’ When I passed, there was a call, ‘I have imposed My obligation and have lightened it for My slaves.'” (Bewley, Sahih al-Bukhari, Chapter 66. Book of the Virtues of the Companions, LXXI: The Mi’raj, No. 3674: *; *)

    See also Khan’s translation of Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 58, Number 227.

    According to some other reports this was supposedly the time when Muhammad saw his Lord as light:

    Chapter 78: THE MEANING OF THE WORDS OF ALLAH: “HE SAW HIM IN ANOTHER DESCENT” (AL-QUR’AN, LIII. 13). DID THE APOSTLE SEE HIS LORD ON THE NIGHT OF HIS JOURNEY (TO HEAVEN)?

    It is narrated on the authority of Ibn ‘Abbas that he (the Holy Prophet) saw (Allah) with his heart. (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0334)

    It is narrated on the authority of Ibn Abbas that the words: “The heart belied not what he saw” (al-Qur’an, Iiii. 11) and “Certainly he saw Him in another descent” (al-Qur’an, Iiii. 13) imply that he saw him twice with his heart. (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0335)

    And:

    Chapter 79: PERTAINING TO HIS (PROPHET’S) WORDS: HE IS A LIGHT; HOW COULD I SEE HIM? – AND HIS WORDS: I SAW THE LIGHT

    It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr: I asked the Messenger of Allah: Did you see thy Lord? He said: He is a Light. How could I see Him? (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0341)

    Abdullah b. Shaqiq reported: I said to Abu Dharr: Had I seen the Messenger of Allah, I would have asked him. He (Abu Dharr) said: What is that thing that you wanted to inquire of him? He said: I wanted to ask him whether he had seen his Lord. Abu Dharr said: I, in fact, inquired of him, and he replied: I saw Light. (Sahih Muslim, Book 001, Number 0342)

    Thus, this would seem to suggest that Allah dwells in a house somewhere in the highest heaven.

    However, other narratives claim that Allah and his throne are actually situated above the seventh heaven since the latter is the roof of creation:

    There are two views over the meaning of the phrase…

    (The first view) is that it refers to its fixed course of location, which is beneath the Throne, BEYOND the earth in that direction. Wherever it goes, it is beneath the Throne, it and all of creation, because the Throne is the ROOF of creation and it is not a sphere as many astronomers claim. Rather it is A DOME SUPPORTED BY LEGS OR PILLARS, CARRIED BY THE ANGELS, and it is ABOVE the universe, ABOVE the heads of people. When the sun is at its zenith at noon, it is in its closest position to the Throne, and when it runs in its fourth orbit at the opposite point to its zenith, at midnight, it is in its furthest position from the Throne. At that point it prostrates and asks permission to rise, as mentioned in the Hadiths.

    Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Dharr said, “I was with the Prophet in the Masjid at sunset, and he said…

    ((O Abu Dharr! Do you know where the sun sets?)) I said, ‘Allah and His Messenger know best.’ He said…

    ((It goes and prostrates itself beneath the Throne, and that is what Allah says: ))”

    It was also reported that Abu Dharr said, “I asked the Messenger of Allah about the Ayah…

    He said…

    ((Its fixed course is beneath the Throne.))”… (Tafsir Ibn Kathir Abridged, Volume 8 Surat Al-Ahzab, Verse 51 to the end of Surat Ad-Dukhan, abridged by a group of scholars under the supervision of Shaykh Safiur-Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri [Darussalam Publishers & Distributors, Riyadh, Houston, New York, London, Lahore; September 2000, first edition], pp. 196-197: *; bold and capital emphasis ours)

    Since Allah’s throne is the roof of creation (which would include the seven heavens) and therefore above it, and since Allah is on or above the throne,

    Surely your Lord is God, who created the heavens and the earth in six days — then sat Himself upon the Throne, covering the day with the night it pursues urgently — and the sun, and the moon, and the stars subservient, by His command. Verily, His are the creation and the command. Blessed be God, the Lord of all Being. S. 7:54

    This means that he himself is located above creation.

    But then there are certain reports which mention Firdaus, a place in the garden/paradise (Janna) that is actually located above Allah’s throne!

    IV: The degrees of those doing jihad in the way of Allah. (One says “this is my way” in either the feminine or masculine.)

    Abu ‘Abdullah said that the singular of ghuza (3:156) is ghâzî. “They are degrees” (3:163) is “they have degrees.”

    2637. It is related from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah said, “If someone believes in Allah and His Messenger and establishes the prayer and fasts Ramadan, it is mandatory for Allah to admit him to the Garden, whether he does jihad in the Way of Allah or sits in the land where he was born.” They asked, “Messenger of Allah, shall we give the people the good news?” He said, “In the Garden there are a hundred degrees which Allah has prepared for those who do jihad in the way of Allah. Between each two degrees is the space between heaven and earth. When you ask Allah, ask Him for Firdaws which is in the middle of the Garden and the top of the Garden.” I think that he said, “above the Throne of the All-Merciful and from it spring the rivers of the Garden.”

    Muhammad ibn Fulayj said from his father, “Above it is the Throne of the All-Merciful.” (Aisha Bewley, The Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, Chapter 61. Book of Jihad and Military Expeditions: *; *)

    And:

    6987. ‘Ata’ ibn Yasar related from Abu Hurayra that the Prophet said, “If anyone believes in Allah and His Messenger and establishes the prayer and fasts Ramadan, it is mandatory for Allah to admit him to the Garden, whether he emigrates in the way of Allah or sits in the land where he was born.” They asked, “Messenger of Allah, shall we inform the people about that?” He said, “In the Garden there are a hundred degrees which Allah has prepared for those who do jihad in the way of Allah. Between each two degrees is the space between heaven and earth. When you ask Allah, ask Him for Firdaws which is in the middle of the Garden and the top of the Garden above the Throne of the Merciful and from it spring the rivers of the Garden.” (Bewley, Sahih al-Bukhari, 100. Book of Tawhid (the belief that Allah is One in His Essence, Attributes and Actions), XXII. “When His Throne was on the water.” (11:7) “And He is the Lord of the Mighty Throne” (27:26): *; *; bold and underline emphasis ours)

    Thus, Allah’s throne is NOT above everything since there is a specific garden that is actually higher than it! Talk about major mass confusion!

    In light of this, it is possible that Allah’s heavenly house is located in that same garden where Firdaus is.

    Whatever the case may be, these reports conclusively demonstrate that Allah is not an omnipresent being since he doesn’t exist everywhere. Rather, Allah lives in a specific place that is located either in heaven somewhere or above it. This explains why Allah is said to descend to the lowest heaven in the third part of every night:

    XIV: Supplication and prayer during the last part of the night

    Allah says, “The part of the night they spent asleep was small and they would seek forgiveness before dawn.” (51:17)

    1094. It is related from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah said, “Every night, when a third of the night remains, Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, descends to the lowest heaven saying, ‘Is there anyone calling on Me that I may answer him? Is there anyone asking anything of Me that I may give it to him? Is there anyone asking forgiveness of Me that I may forgive him?'” (Bewley, Sahih al-Bukhari, Chapter 25. Tahajjud Prayers: *; *; underline emphasis ours)

    And:

    7056. Abu ‘Abdullah al-Agharr related from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah said, “Every night, when a third of the night remains, Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, descends to the lowest heaven saying, ‘Is there anyone calling on Me that I may answer him? Is there anyone asking anything of Me that I may give it to him? Is there anyone asking forgiveness of Me that I may forgive him?'” (Bewley, Sahih al-Bukhari, 100. Book of Tawhid (the belief that Allah is One in His Essence, Attributes and Actions), XXXV. The words of Allah Almighty, “They desire alter Allah’s words…” (48:15): *; *; bold and underline emphasis ours)

    See also Khan’s version of Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 21, Number 246 and Volume 9, Book 93, Number 586.

    This also helps us to further understand why the Muslim scripture says that Allah, along with the angels, travels from one place to another:

    What do they look for, but that Allah shall come to them in the cloud — shadows, and the angels? The matter is determined, and unto Allah all matters are returned. S. 2:210

    So, when the Trumpet is blown with a single blast and the earth and the mountains are lifted up and crushed with a single blow, then, on that day, the Terror shall come to pass, and heaven shall be split, for upon that day it shall be very frail, and the angels shall stand upon its borders, and upon that day eight shall carry above them the Throne of thy Lord. On that day you shall be exposed, not one secret of yours concealed. S. 69:13-18

    No indeed! When the earth is ground to powder, and thy Lord comes, and the angels rank on rank, and Gehenna is brought out, upon that day man will remember; and how shall the Reminder be for him? S. 89:21-22

    Allah is apparently not omnipresent! In light of this it can’t be possible for Allah to live both in heaven and in the Kabah at the same time.

    However, some Muslims may argue that Allah, like Yahweh the true God, is omnipresent in that he is able to dwell in more than one place at the same time without this diminishing his Deity in the least. They may contend that all these verses and reports are not denying his omnipresence but are speaking of Allah appearing in some unique way, manifesting his presence in a tangible form so that the inhabitants of heaven or the earth may see and behold his glory, which is what this next narrative seems to imply:

    7001. ‘Ata’ ibn Yasar related that Abu Sa’id al-Khudri said, “We asked, ‘Messenger of Allah, will we see our Lord on the Day of Rising?’ He said, ‘Do you dispute with one another about seeing the sun or moon when there are no clouds.’ ‘No,’ we answered. He said, ‘You will not dispute with one another about seeing you Lord on that Day except as you disagree about seeing either of them.’ Then he said, ‘An announcer will make a proclamation: “Let every community follow what they used to worship.” The people of the cross will go with their cross. Those with idols will go with their idols. The people of every deity will go with their deity until there only remains those who worshipped Allah, pious or impious, and the remnants of the People of the Book. Then Jahannam will be brought and presented to them as if it was a mirage. The Jews will be asked, “What were you worshipping?” They will say, “We used to worship ‘Uzayr the son of God.” They will be told, “You lied. Allah has not taken consort or son. What are you seeking?” They will say, “We want for You to let us drink.” It will be said, “Drink.” They will fall [into Hell]. Then the Christians will be asked, “What were you worshipping?” They will answer, “We used to worship the Messiah son of God.” They will be told, “You lied. Allah has not taken consort or son. What are you seeking?” They will say, “We want for You to let us drink.” It will be said, “Drink.” They will fall [into Hell]. There will remain those who worshipped Allah, pious or impious. They will be asked, “What keeps you when all of the people have gone?’ They will answer, “We parted from them (in the world) in spite of having greater need of them then. We heard an announcer proclaiming, ‘Let every nation join what they used to worship.’ We are waiting for our Lord.” Then the Compeller will come to them in a form other than His form which they saw the first time and will say, “I am your Lord.” they will answer, “You are not our Lord.” None will speak to Him except for the Prophets. He will say, “Is there a sign between you and Him by which you can recognise Him?” “The shin,” they will answer. He will uncover his shin* and every believer will prostrate to Him. There will remain those who used to prostrate to Allah in order to show off and for the sake of reputation. They will go to prostrate and their backs will become like a single surface. Then the bridge will be brought and placed over the Fire.’ (Bewley, Sahih al-Bukhari, 100. Book of Tawhid (the belief that Allah is One in His Essence, Attributes and Actions), XXIV. The words of Allah Almighty, “Faces that Day will be radiant, gazing at their Lord.” (75:22-23): *; *; bold and underline emphasis ours)

    See also Khan’s version of Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532s.

    They may further contend that the Quran does say that no matter what direction a person turns to Allah’s face is there since it is everywhere:

    And to Allah belong the east and the west, so wherever you turn yourselves or your faces there is the Face of Allah (wajhu Allahi) (and He is High above, over His Throne)… S. 2:115 Hilali-Khan

    And that Allah is with man wherever he is seeing that he is closer to him than his own jugular vein:

    And when My servants question thee concerning Me — I am near to answer the call of the caller, when he calls to Me; so let them respond to Me, and let them believe in Me; haply so they will go aright. S. 2:186

    They seek to hide from men and seek not to hide from Allah. He is with them when by night they hold discourse displeasing unto Him. Allah ever surroundeth what they do. S. 4:108

    And when We said to thee, ‘Surely thy Lord encompasses men,’ and We made the vision that We showed thee and the tree cursed in the Koran to be only a trial for men; and We frighten them, but it only increases them in great insolence. S. 17:60

    We indeed created man; and We know what his soul whispers within him, and We are nearer to him than the jugular vein. When the two angels meet together, sitting one on the right, and one on the left, S. 50:16-17

    (And We are nigher him than you, but you do not see Us) S. 56:85

    It is He that created the heavens and the earth in six days then seated Himself upon the Throne. He knows what penetrates into the earth, and what comes forth from it, — what comes down from heaven, and what goes up unto it. He is with you wherever you are; and Allah sees the things you do. S. 57:4

    Hast thou not seen that Allah knoweth all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth? There is no secret conference of three but He is their fourth, nor of five but He is their sixth, nor of less than that or more but He is with them wheresoever they may be; and afterward, on the Day of Resurrection, He will inform them of what they did. Lo! Allah is Knower of all things. S. 58:7

    The hadiths concur:

    Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari:
    When Allah’s Apostle fought the battle of Khaibar, or when Allah’s Apostle went towards it, (whenever) the people, (passed over a high place overlooking a valley, they raised their voices saying, “Allahu-Akbar! Allahu-Akbar! None has the right to be worshipped except Allah.” On that Allah’s Apostle said (to them), “Lower your voices, for you are not calling a deaf or an absent one, but you are calling a Hearer Who is near and is with you.” I was behind the riding animal of Allah’s Apostle and he heard me saying. “There Is neither might, nor power but with Allah,” On that he said to me, “O Abdullah bin Qais!” I said, “Labbaik. O Allah’s Apostle!” He said, “Shall I tell you a sentence which is one of the treasures of Paradise” I said, “Yes, O Allah’s Apostle! Let my father and mother be sacrificed for your sake.” He said, “It is: There is neither might nor power but with Allah.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 5, Book 59, Number 516)

    However, if Allah’s face is everywhere and he is with man wherever he is then why are Muslims required to bow down to the Kaba? What makes the Kaba anymore special than any other location on earth?

    It will not suffice to say that Abraham and Ishmael built the Kaba since a) there is absolutely no archaeological proof that they ever went to Mecca, let alone built this pagan cube structure, and b) even if they did this still doesn’t explain why Muslims are required to prostrate to it.

    The only answer that will suffice is to assert that Allah has chosen to dwell within the Kabah in a special and unique way, manifesting his glory in that specific location in a manner that he hasn’t done so for any other place. (Besides the Temple in Jerusalem that is since Muslims do believe that this was also a house built for the worship of Allah. We will have more to say concerning Yahweh’s Temple in the second part of our discussion). Therefore, by prostrating towards the Kabah Muslims are actually bowing before Allah in worship since his presence is there.

    This view would mean that Allah is currently dwelling in a house in the highest heaven and one located on the earth, which raises some further questions. If Muslims believe that Allah can inhabit both a heavenly and an earthly house at the same time then why can’t he inhabit a physical body without this diminishing his divinity? After all if Allah allows himself to be contained within shrines that are limited in size and place then why is he incapable of possessing a physical body without ceasing to be fully divine?

    The other problem is that there are Muslims who outright deny that Allah dwells in the Kabah:

    Muslims lift their hands toward the sky when they make supplications (du’a) to Allah because the sky is the qibla for du’a, not that Allah occupies that particular direction–just as the Kaaba is the qibla of the prayer (salat), without Muslims believing that Allah is in that direction. Rather, Allah in His wisdom has made the qibla a sign (ayah) of Muslim unity, just as He has made the sky the sign of His exaltedness and His infinitude, meanings which come to the heart of every believer merely by facing the sky and supplicating Allah. (Nu Ha Min Keller, Is Allah in the Sky?: *; *; bold and underline emphasis ours)

    Keller’s assertion that the qiblah is a sign of Muslim unity isn’t a sufficient explanation for praying towards the Kabah, especially if Allah isn’t in that direction, since this essentially means that Allah united Muslims in bowing to a pagan shrine, thereby causing them to commit idolatry!

    Hence, for Muslims like Keller who deny that Allah actually lives in the Kabah in some unique and special way – or reject that he dwells there in any sense whatsoever since Allah doesn’t live on earth but in heaven or above the seven heavens – are faced with a dilemma. They must contend with the fact that they are guilty of worshiping the Kabah by bowing to it or in its direction since prostration is an act of worship according to the Quran. And since Allah doesn’t live there and isn’t in that direction the Muslims are therefore actually worshiping a pagan shrine along with Allah for no good reason other than that their prophet told them to do so!

    This is similar to Muhammad exhorting his followers to kiss and caress a black stone, which could neither benefit nor harm anyone, thereby leading countless number of Muslims to engage in a rather blatant act of idolatry! http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/kabah_idol1.html

    So Muslims why are you bowing to the Kabah? Now before you decide to turn to the Holy Bible and quote passages where the prophets of Yahweh and the righteous prayed towards Jerusalem in order to justify your idolatrous practices we suggest that you first read our answer. Besides, you can’t have your cake and eat it too. You can’t appeal to the Holy Bible to prove your case on the one hand and then turn around and attack it, saying it is corrupted, whenever Christians use it to expose Muhammad as a false prophet.

  11. Sam Shamoun says:

    Now Rad, here is my response to Bassam Zawadi where I prove that Muslims are stone worshipers. Maybe you can get Williams to defend this perversion of monotheism. But don’t hold your breath.

    It is ironic that Zawadi continues to claim that Islam is a monotheistic religion when, in reality, it is nothing more than repackaged paganism.

    The fact is that Muhammad was an idolater who is responsible for causing countless numbers of individuals to commit idolatry, since he made it mandatory to venerate a black stone which he himself kissed and caressed.

    Suffice it to say, this idolatrous veneration of an inanimate object perplexed even his own followers:

    Narrated ‘Abis bin Rabia:
    ‘Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said “No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah’s Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you.” (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667)

    The following, somewhat lengthy quote provides some additional details concerning the ways in which Muslims are supposed to honor this stone:

    It is Sunnah to perform certain acts in tawaf as given below:

    Facing the Black Stone at the start of the tawaf while uttering a takbir (Allahu-Akbar), and a tahlil (La ilaha illahlah), and raising one’s hands as they are raised in prayers, and if possible touching it with both hands and kissing it quietly, or placing one’s cheek on it. Otherwise, one may touch it with one’s hand and kiss the hand, or touch it with something, and then kiss it, or if even that is not possible, one may just point to it with a stick, etc. as is mentioned in some of the ahadith given below.

    Ibn ‘Umar said: “Allah’s Messenger faced the Black Stone, touched it, and then placed his lips on it and wept for a long time.” ‘Umar also wept for a long time. The Prophet said: ‘O ‘Umar, this is the place where one should shed tears.” (Reported by Al-Hakim, who considers it a sound hadith with a sound chain of authorities)

    It is reported by Ibn ‘Abbas that ‘Umar bent down towards the Black Stone and said: “By Allah! I know that you are A MERE STONE, and if I had not seen my beloved Prophet kissing you and touching you I would have never done so.” The Qur’an says: “You have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct).”‘ (Qur’an 33.32) This was reported by Ahmad and others in slightly different words.

    Nafi’ said, “I have seen Ibn ‘Umar touching the Black Stone with his hand, and then kissing his hand and saying: ‘Ever since I saw the Prophet doing this, I have never failed to do that.”’ (Reported by Bukhari and Muslim)

    Sowayd bin Ghaflah said: “I have seen ‘Umar kissing the Black Stone and touching it.” He further said: “I know that the Prophet was especially very particular about it.” (Muslim)

    Ibn ‘Umar reported that Allah’s Messenger used to come to Ka’bah, touch the Black Stone and then say: Bismillahi wallahu akbar (In the name of Allah, Allah is the Greatest.)” (Ahmad)

    Muslim has reported on the authority of Abu Tufail that he said: “I have seen the Prophet making tawaf around the Ka’bah and touching it with a stick and then kissing the stick.”

    Bukhari, Muslim and Abu Daw’ud reported that ‘Umar approached the Black Stone and kissed it. Then he said: “I know that you are A MERE STONE that can neither harm nor do any good. If I had not seen the Prophet kissing you, I would have never kissed you.”

    Al-Khatabi said: “This shows that abiding by the Sunnah of the Prophet is binding, regardless of whether or not we understand its reason or the wisdom behind it.”

    Such information devolves obligation on all those whom it reaches, even if they may not fully comprehend its significance. It is known, however, that kissing the Black Stone signifies respect for it, recognition of our obligation toward it, and using it as a means of seeking Allah’s blessings. Indeed Allah has preferred some stones over others, as He preferred some countries and cities, days and nights, and months over others. The underlying spirit of all this is unquestioning submission to Allah.

    In some ahadith which say that “the Black Stone is Allah’s right hand on earth,” we do find, however, a plausible rationale and justification for this statement. In other words whosoever touches the Black Stone he pledges allegiance to Allah, as it were, by giving his hand into the hand of Allah, just as some followers do pledge their fealty to their kings and masters, by kissing and shaking hands with them.

    Al-Muhallib said: “The hadith of ‘Umar refutes the assertions of those who say that ‘The Black Stone is Allah’s right hand on earth wherewith He shakes the hands of His slaves.’” God forbid that we should ascribe any physical organs to Allah [sic]. The commandment to kiss the Black Stone is meant to test and to demonstrate palpably as to who obeys and submits. It may be compared with the command to Iblis to bow to Adam.

    We have no definite evidence, however, to believe that any of the stones used in building the Ka’bah originally (by Ibrahim and Isma’il), is still in existence today excepting the Black Stone. (Sayyid Saabiq, Fiqh-Us-Sunnah, Volume 5: Tawaf or Circumambulation around Ka’bah, Number 74b; bold, capital, and italic underline emphasis ours)

    Pay attention here to how Muhammad would touch and kiss the black stone, as well as place his cheek on it, taking its station as the place to weep. Muhammad would also kiss his hand after touching the stone, and, if he couldn’t touch it, he would use a stick to reach it and then kiss that. And even though they didn’t (and still don’t) understand the wisdom behind it the Muslims continue(d) to implement this practice of their prophet since they thought/think that they would/will receive a blessing by doing so.

    As if this wasn’t bad enough, the above narration asserts that some Muslims actually believed that the black stone is Allah’s right hand on earth and that to touch it is to shake Allah’s right hand!

    But that’s not all. According to another report the black stone will actually intercede for Muslims on the Day of Judgment:

    2944. Sa’d b. Jubair is reported to have said, “I heard Ibn ‘Abbas saying that Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings Allah be upon him) said, “This Stone must come on the Day of Resurrection and it will have two eyes to see with and a tongue to talk with bearing witness for him who caressed it with Truth (Islam).” (Sunan Ibn-I-Majah (Imam Abu Abdullah Muhammad b. Yazid Ibn-I-Maja Al-Qazwini), English version by Muhammad Tufail Ansari [Kazi Publications, Lahore (Pakistan), 1st edition 1995], Volume IV, Chapter NO. XVII: Caressing The (Black) Stone (Fixed in a Wall of Ka’ba), pp. 244-245; bold and underline emphasis ours)

    What makes this rather ironic is that the pagans did the very same thing to their idols since they too believed that their stone gods would intercede for them before Allah!

    However, Muhammad wasn’t buying any of their excuses since he harshly rebuked them for their blatant idolatry:

    If ye call them to guidance, they will not obey: For you it is the same whether ye call them or ye hold your peace! Verily those whom ye call upon besides God are servants like unto you: Call upon them, and let them listen to your prayer, if ye are (indeed) truthful! Have they feet to walk with? Or hands to lay hold with? Or eyes to see with? Or ears to hear with? Say: “Call your ‘god-partners’, scheme (your worst) against me, and give me no respite! For my Protector is God, Who revealed the Book (from time to time), and He will choose and befriend the righteous. But those ye call upon besides Him, are unable to help you, and indeed to help themselves.” S. 7:193-197 Y. Ali

    And they worship besides Allah things that hurt them not, nor profit them, and they say: “These are our intercessors with Allah.” Say: “Do you inform Allah of that which He knows not in the heavens and on the earth?” Glorified and Exalted be He above all that which they associate as partners with Him! S. 10:18

    And yet Muhammadans like Zawadi expect us to believe that they are not idolaters who are guilty of basically worshiping a stone which the pagans themselves honored and worshiped!

    As far as the Holy Bible is concerned, what Muhammad did is blatant idolatry since God’s revelation expressly prohibits true believers from bowing down to and kissing objects such as stones:

    “And God spoke all these words, saying, ‘I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.’” Exodus 20:1-6

    “Do not make idols or set up an image or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the Lord your God.” Leviticus 26:1

    “Yet I will leave seven thousand in Israel, all the knees that have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.” 1 Kings 19:18

    “if I have looked at the sun when it shone, or the moon moving in splendor, and my heart has been secretly enticed, and my mouth has kissed my hand, this also would be an iniquity to be punished by the judges, for I would have been false to God above.” Job 31:26-28

    God even commanded his people that such objects had to be destroyed:

    “The LORD spoke to Moses in the plains of Moab by the Jordan across from Jericho, ‘Tell the Israelites: When you cross the Jordan into the land of Canaan, you must drive out all the inhabitants of the land before you, destroy all their sacred stones and cast images, and demolish all their high places. You are to take possession of the land and settle in it because I have given you the land to possess.’” Numbers 33:50-53

    And yet, instead of destroying the black stone, Muhammad kept this pagan relic in order to venerate it, something which is an abomination to the true God of Abraham.

    Zawadi must, therefore, come to grips with reality and face the fact that his prophet was an idolater who stands condemned for promoting idolatry, as well as for perverting the message of God’s true prophets and apostles. http://answering-islam.org/authors/shamoun/rebuttals/zawadi/white_debate2_add.html

  12. Ken Temple says:

    Paul,
    “Radical Moderate” is correct in that your question is the fallacy of the false dilemma.
    Since I already answered that question that Jesus is One person with 2 natures and we agree He still has a human nature, although glorified, and that that is a mystery; your question is a false dilemma since we don’t divide Jesus up into 2 persons or 2 parts. We worship God in Spirit and Truth, (John 4:23-24; Philippians 3:3) Jesus is one person, so it is against Christian sciences of interpretation to divide Him up in your question, so your question is wrong.

    You also changed the words of Romans 1:25, and that is a great sin and Allah has put a woe on you – Surah 2:79.

    You have set up a false dilemma so therefore your question is irrational. You even had to do what your quran says you should not do. “Woe to those who write the scripture with their own hands and say this is from Allah” by re wording Romans 1.

    Sam’s work is extensive, and I appreciate knowing the links to them all – although I admit I have not had time to digest them all; but I have read some of them, and reading some of them here, just now, is interesting, and I appreciate the work he has done and quotes from Islamic sources are extensive.

    Paul, you cannot argue against the fact that Sam does quote extensively from Islamic sources – Qur’an, Ahadith, Tafsirs, Tarikh, Sira, etc; and they are your religion’s primary sources; whereas most of your points are in liberal theology and liberal scholars like James Dunn, Bart Ehrman, E.P. Sanders, and James Tabor, who are operating with very naturalistic presuppositions, which is not the way a good Muslim should think. You are inconsistent to apply a naturalist/secularist/atheist presupposition and worldview to Christian Scriptures, yet you don’t apply that worldview and presupposition to Islam and the Qur’an. That is not very intellectual on your part.

    Sam makes a good point by the quote from the Hadith that Umar said, “I would not have done that had I not seen the prophet himself kiss the black stone”

    Bukhari, Muslim and Abu Daw’ud reported that ‘Umar approached the Black Stone and kissed it. Then he said: “I know that you are A MERE STONE that can neither harm nor do any good. If I had not seen the Prophet kissing you, I would have never kissed you.”

    Al-Khatabi said: “This shows that abiding by the Sunnah of the Prophet is binding, regardless of whether or not we understand its reason or the wisdom behind it.”

  13. Ken Temple says:

    Paul,
    When one goes deeper into Islamic sources as Sam has, I can more and more how irrational it is:

    2944. Sa’d b. Jubair is reported to have said, “I heard Ibn ‘Abbas saying that Allah’s Messenger (peace and blessings Allah be upon him) said, “This Stone must come on the Day of Resurrection and it will have two eyes to see with and a tongue to talk with bearing witness for him who caressed it with Truth (Islam).” (Sunan Ibn-I-Majah (Imam Abu Abdullah Muhammad b. Yazid Ibn-I-Maja Al-Qazwini), English version by Muhammad Tufail Ansari [Kazi Publications, Lahore (Pakistan), 1st edition 1995], Volume IV, Chapter NO. XVII: Caressing The (Black) Stone (Fixed in a Wall of Ka’ba), pp. 244-245; bold and underline emphasis ours)

    Paul, you need to study more deeply on Islam and see how irrational it is.
    This is massively goofy and you should be embarrassed.

  14. Ken Temple says:

    I answered your question according to Christian science of interpretation (not separating Jesus the eternal Son of God as one person with 2 natures); and according to the logical fallacy of the false dilemma (which you committed); but you are the one who does not answer our questions!

    • Ken Temple says:

      The science/knowledge/rules of interpretation according to the Christian body of knowledge. (context; allowing all of Scripture to speak; and that all Scripture is God-breathed, and that it all comes from one mind, God, who cannot lie. (Titus 1:2 – God cannot lie)

      or, the basic rules/principles/laws of proper interpretation; which you violated.

  15. Paul you wrote…

    “Your questions to me are off topic and a crude attempt to change the subject (a subject I have no intention of writing about any time soon). “

    My response:

    This coming from a man who shouted for half an hour “Why does your God kill babies” when the topic that David and Jay Smith were disusing was “Allah helping start Christianity”. Paul what does “Why does your God kill babies” have to do with Allah helping to start Christianity? Seems like you were crude and off topic on that one.

    Paul I’m wondering how my questions can become the subject, since even Ibrahim, someone you have said is “very intelligent” and “sane” is also waiting on your answer.

    From Islamic sources I have learned that your god, has a face, he has eyes, he has a mouth, he has hands (some Muslims say allah only has right hands because having a left hand is beneath him), he has a shin, some Muslims say he even has loins, while Ijaz Ahmend and Abu Laith now say he is loinless, and has a waist cloth, he has a pre existent womb that attaches to his waist. Strange, does this make your god a transsexual god?

    Either way your god seems kind of freakish, I mean how do you picture your god in your mind, walking around with his various parts, and his waist cloth with the womb attached to it.

    You wrote…

    “It is quite clear that despite all protests to the contrary, you are genuinely stumped by this question. “

    My response:

    No we are not stumped by your false dilemma, since I and others have always responded that we worship the divine person that has two natures.

    You wrote…

    “Is Jesus then and now 100% man in mind, body and soul, alike us in ALL things except for sin? “

    My response:

    This is another demonstration that you did not know and you do not know what Christians believe. I don’t know about you Paul, but I have never met a person who has two natures, a human nature and a divine nature.

    You continue to repeat your false dilemma:

    “ Do you as a Christian worship both the human and divine Jesus? “

    To which the response has been

    We worship the Divine Person who has two natures human and Divine.

    You continue to repeat your irrational question

    “Do you differentiate in your worship between Jesus as God and Jesus the man? If you do NOT differentiate, then you are grievously sinning by committing idolatry – the worship of a creature. “

    We do not differentiate between the two natures that is to say we do not worship the divine nature and not the human nature, we do not worship the human nature and not the divine nature and we do not worship the divine nature and the human nature. We worship the DIVINE person who has two natures.

    Paul you can continue to confuse nature with person, you can continue to demonstrate that you do not and did not understand what Christians believe until the image of your loin less transsexual god with his pre existent womb attached to his waist clothe is pluck from your mind so you can recognize his various parts from the rest of the parts on the day of resurrection. However that will never change mine or anyone else answer to your false dilemma.

    You can choose not to understand our answer, you can refuse to accept our answer, however you can not say we refused to answer or that we are stumped by your question since we have answered you. Something you have yet to do when it comes to my questions. So who is the one who is really stumped? The one who answers your questions, or you who refuses to answer questions?

    Paul your problem is that you can never really know your god, you don’t know if he is a person, or if Allah is His attributes, or if Allah has a nature. So what business do you have by starting to ask questions about worshiping natures?

    In fact muslims are divided over the concept as to whether Allah’s attributes equate to Allah Himself or are other than Allah.

    If Allah has no nature, and his attributes are other than Him, Paul do you worship a nature that Allah doesn’t have? How about His attributes? Do you worship Allah’s attributes? Be careful, you might be worshiping something other than Allah.

    As you can see Paul my questions have everything to do with the topic. It is you who are stumped by your own topic.

    Paul since my previous questions have stumped you and you seem to have a problem with Mystery when it comes to God, maybe you can answer a simpler question.

    What does Alef, La, Mim mean in the Quran?

    • I forgot to add….

      “For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, ‘TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.’ Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you Acts 17:23

      And what I proclaim to you is not your transsexual god of various body parts and a waist cloth. I proclaim to you the true living God, who is and was and is to come.

  16. Sam Shamoun says:

    Williams, I posted my reply to your silly and stupid challenge twice, but for some reason Ken didn’t publish it.

    Ken, can you please post my reply to Williams’ challenge lest in his warped mind he thinks we haven’t refuted his desperate jihad against Jesus, his God and Muhammad’s judge? I would appreciate it.

  17. That may be Paul, but it does not change the fact that you have an unknowable god, a god that may or may not have a nature. If he does not have a nature then he can just as well be evil as he is good. A god that is an assortment of various parts a god who you will only know when he plucks what ever image you have of him out of your own mind on the day of resurrection.

    Paul in other words you have a god of your own mind, your own thinking, just like Mohamed who first conjured him up, your god only exists in the sinful mind of his followers.

  18. That may be Paul, but it does not change the fact that you have an unknowable god, a god that may or may not have a nature. If he does not have a nature then he can just as well be evil as he is good. A god that is an assortment of various parts a god who you will only know when he plucks what ever image you have of him out of your own mind on the day of resurrection.

    Paul in other words you have a god of your own mind, your own thinking, just like Mohamed who first conjured him up, your god only exists in the sinful mind of his followers.

  19. Ken Temple says:

    Sam –
    Sorry, I have been away from my computer for a while and I don’t know why some go automatically through and others don’t; but I think I have now approved of them all.

  20. Sam Shamoun says:

    So Williams, not that all of us have answered you BY GIVING YOU VIRTUALLY THE SAME REPLY, showing the consistency in our belief on this issue, can you now muster some courage and come to the defense of your god by explaining why you worship a cube and a stone when Allah is present in neither of them? And please make sure to muster up some courage this time around by further explaining the logical dilemma that Radical and Anthony Rogers have pointed out concerning your non-existend god and his non-existent messenger. At least thy both have that in common, namely, neither is Allah is God since he doesn’t exist, nor his Muhammad a messenger.

  21. Sam Shamoun says:

    And in case Williams’ can’t find the answer, here is the link to it: https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/06/07/this-might-help-muslims-begin-to-understand/#comment-403

    So much for silly and pathetic straw man, which only shows that you were always a reprobate.

  22. Ken, Sam, and Anthony. You know whats funny, is that Paul Williams accuses Sam Shamaoun of being insane but its he is demonstrates the classic sign of insanity. Repeating the same thing over and over again hoping to get a different result.

  23. Ken Temple says:

    Paul –
    If you google the phrase, “The Science of the Qur’an” or “The Sciences of Hadith Study” or “The Sciences of Tafsir” you would get a lot of links to a lot of books by Islamic scholars. Yasir Qadhi has a book called “Introduction to the Science of the Qur’an”, etc. But you already know this; so it is weird of you to be acting the way you have been on this issue.

    Just as one has to follow the rules and discipline of how to interpret Qur’an and Hadith in Islam, there is a basic discipline/science/ rules of interpretation for Christian Scripture also.

    And you know this, so it is strange for you to be acting the way you do on this issue.

    The science/knowledge/rules of interpretation according to the Christian body of knowledge. (studying verses in their context- noting grammar, syntax, paragraph, author’s themes and purposes of the entire book, author’s usage of words and concepts in other books, etc.; allowing all of Scripture to speak; and that all Scripture is God-breathed, and that it all comes from one mind, God, who cannot lie. (Titus 1:2 – God cannot lie)

    These basic rules/principles/laws of proper interpretation; which you violated; since you cannot divide Jesus into 2 Persons. So, again, your question is the fallacy of the false dilemma, and you added words and changed words to Romans 1:25, which is what your own Qur’an tells you not to do; so you even violated Islam there. “Woe to you . . . ” Surah 2:79

    • Sam Shamoun says:

      Ken, you are wasting your time on this reprobate idolator. The Bible does say that there is a point in which you need to stop giving what is sacred to the dogs and refrain from casting pearls before swine (cf. Matthew 7:6). I think that time has come.

  24. Sam Shamoun says:

    Talk about being delusional! Williams’ statements show what happens to a person’s brain after reading the Quran too much and salivating over a black stone. And this is the same gent who ignores all our posts concerning all the major problems with his own false beliefs, showing just how deceptive and inconsistent he truly is! What do you expect from someone who is possessed by the same spirit which oppressed his false prophet?

    • Sam Shamoun says:

      Williams, you mean the same medication that Allah gave to Muhammad but to no avail? In fact Williams, since we got your ear can you be so kind as to explain to us the mental condition of your prophet when he thought he was having sex with all of his wives, even though he wasn’t?

      XLVI. Magic

      The words of Allah Almighty, “The shaytans rejected, teaching people sorcery and what had been sent down to Harut and Marut, the two angels in Babylon, who taught no one until they had said to him, ‘We are merely a trial and temptation, so do not reject.’ People learned from them how to separate a man and his wife but they cannot harm anyone by it, except with Allah’s permission. They have learned what will harm them and will not benefit them. They know that any who deal in it will have no share in the Next World.” (2:102)

      And His words, “Magicians do not prosper wherever they go.” (20:69)

      And His words, “Do you succumb to magic with your eyes wide-open?” (21:3)

      And His words, “And suddenly their ropes and staffs appeared to him, by their magic, to be slithering about.” (20:66)

      And His words, “And from the evil of women who blow on knots.” (113:4) An-naffathat are female practitioners of magic.

      “So how have you been bewitched?” (23:89) meaning blinded…

      XLVIII. Should the source of magic be extracted from where it is?

      Qatada said, “I asked Sa’id ibn al-Musayyab, ‘If a man is bewitched or unable to come to his wife, can he seek to undo it or use nushra*?’ ‘Yes,’ he answered, ‘There is no harm in that. By it they desire to put things right. That which is beneficial for people is not forbidden.’”

      [Nushra is reciting verses over water which is then used by the person afflicted.]

      5432. ‘Urwa related that ‘A’isha said, “The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, was bewitched so that he would imagine that he had had intercourse with his wives when he had not”. (Sufyan said, “This is the worst type of magic when it does that.”) He said, “A’isha, do you know that Allah has given me a decision in what I asked Him about? Two men came to me and one of them sat at my head and the other and at my feet, and the one at my head said to the other, ‘What ails the man?’ ‘Bewitched,’ he answered. He said, ‘And who has bewitched him?’ He replied, ‘Labid ibn al-A’sam, a man of the Banu Zurayq, the allies of the Jews, who is a hypocrite.’ He said, ‘Using what?” He replied, ‘A comb and flax fibres.’ He asked, ‘Where is it?’ He said, ‘Inside a male palm spadex under a stone in the well of Dharwan.’” The Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, went to the well to remove it. He said, “This is the well that I was shown.” Its water was the colour of henna infusion and the date palms looks like the heads of devils. He said, “It was taken out.” I asked, “Why do not use nushra?’ He replied, “By Allah, Allah has cured me. I dislike to provoke evil against anyone.” (Aisha Bewley, The Sahih Collection of al-Bukhari, Chapter 79. The Book of Medicine: http://bewley.virtualave.net/bukhari39.html#tibb)

      To make matters worse the Islamic sources say that Muhammad’s condition lasted for at least six months or even nearly a year!

      (Say: I seek refuge in the Lord of mankind…) [114:1-6]. The commentators of the Qur’an said: “The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, had a Jewish servant boy. The Jews approached him and kept after him until he gave them some fallen hair from the Prophet, Allah bless him and give him peace, as well as a few teeth from his comb. The Jews used these to cast a spell of black magic on him. The person who was behind this was the Jew Labid ibn al-A‘sam. He then put the hair in a well belonging to Banu Zurayq called Dharwan. The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, fell ill for a period of six month, during which the hair of his head fell off; he imagined that he slept with his wives when he did not, and was withering away without knowing the reason. As he was one day sleeping, he saw two angels coming to him. One of them sat at his head and the other at his feet. The angel who sat at his head asked: ‘What is wrong with the man?’ The second angel responded: ‘A spell of black magic was cast on him’. The first one asked: ‘And who is responsible for this sorcery?’ The second angel answered: ‘It is Labid ibn al-A‘sam, the Jew’. The first angel asked again: ‘What did he use to cast black magic on him?’ The second angel said: ‘He used a comb and fallen hair’. The first angel asked: ‘Where is it now?’ The second angel said: ‘It is inside the spadix of a palm tree beneath the stepping stone which is inside the well of Dharwan’, at which point the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, woke up. He said: ‘O ‘A’ishah, do you not think that this is from Allah to inform me of the cause of my illness?’ He then sent ‘Ali [ibn Abi Talib], al-Zubayr [ibn al-‘Awwam] and ‘Ammar [ibn Yasir] who drained the water of that well as one would drain the dust of henna. They lifted the stone and got the spadix out and found therein some of the hair of the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, as well a few teeth from his comb. (‘Ali ibn Ahmad al-Wahidi, Asbab al-Nuzul, Q. 113-114: http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=113&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0; http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=114&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0; bold, capital and underline emphasis ours)

      And:

      From B. Zurayq: Labid b. A’sam who bewitched the apostle of God so that he could not come at his wives.1 (The Life of Muhammad, A Translation of Ibn Ishaq’s Sirat Rasul Allah, with introduction and notes by Alfred Guillaume [Karachi Oxford University Press, Karachi, Tenth Impression 1995), p. 240; bold and capital emphasis ours)

      1 In commenting on this Suhayli asserts that the tradition is sound and is accepted by the traditionists. He found in the Jami’ of Mu‘ammar b. Rashad (a work which I cannot find mentioned by Brockelmann) the statement THAT THE SPELL LASTED FOR A YEAR. He adds that the Mu‘tazila and Modernists rejected the tradition ON THE GROUND THAT PROPHETS COULD NOT BE BEWITCHED OTHERWISE THEY WOULD COMMIT SIN and that would be contrary to the word of God ‘And God will protect thee from men’ (5.71). He finds the tradition unassailable. It is properly attested and intellectually acceptable. The prophets were not preserved from bodily afflictions in which category sorcery falls. (Ibid.)

      Could this have been the result of not taking his meds and lying down? Or was this the result of your god failing to protect him from the power of Satan via magic? And could you please be so kind as to explain to us what was Muhammad actually doing that made him think he was engaging in sex? Inquiring minds want to know!

      No wonder you are so demented and inconsistent since the man you follow was demonized and bewitched according to your own authentic sources! Now you can’t be better than he was seeing that you are his follower.

  25. Sam Shamoun says:

    Ken, another one of my posts awaits approval.

  26. Ken Temple says:

    I was busy in ministry/church/ and being with people; and so, and away from computer. (most of the day)

    Paul, I read a lot of what Sam has linked to, etc. and he is just exposing and quoting from Islamic sources. Some other Muslims on line I have noticed, are so embarrassed about these details that they question the weird stuff and details about Muhammad’s sex life, that they become “Qur’an Only” Muslims, and others are leaving Islam more and more nowadays when they have the freedom to question and think for themselves and read the sources. (without the force of Muslim society)

    We can hope that you will read more of the details of your own religion and become embarrassed also.

    Thanks Sam for all the links and details into the life of the founder of Islam – wow. The details are pretty weird – I wonder how many European converts to Islam or African American converts to Islam, or even Muslims who grow up Muslim, know about all these details of Muhammad in the Hadith and commentaries?

  27. Ken Temple says:

    Paul, you are a Fundamentalist Muslim (who wants to restore the office of Khalif, and which theoretically, if accomplished, would then enable the Islamic world to make out all out war against the west, Israel, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, and Christians, according to Surah 9:28-29 and 8:39 and many Hadith, too numerous to recount here.). You were never a born-again Christian(even according to the logic of Islam); and it does not seem like you have even read very much of your own sources. If you did, you should be embarrassed to continue to hold on to it. You follow anti-Supernaturalist liberal theology when wanting to attack Christianity, but your brain is locked and fried in it’s anachronistic and blind acceptance of something that came 600 years later and yet claims to be the further development / completion/ restoration of the original revelations of the Torah and Injeel. Sometimes you are fair with historical facts (like understanding the council of Nicea in 325 AD did not decide the canon of Scripture), but other times you are totally biased in the way you have drank the cool-aid of Islam and allow it to anachronistically judge history, despite the facts.

  28. Ken Temple says:

    You should be embarrassed about
    Islam’s denial of history (Surah 4:157) and anachronistic way of claiming to be the completion and restorer of true monotheism.
    Islam’s mis-understanding of the doctrine of the Trinity
    Islam’s mis-understanding of the phrase “The Son of God”
    That Islam gives permission for husband’s to beat their wives (Surah 4:34)
    the slavery and sex slaves that was part of Islam in history and in the sources and that has even been called for by some today.

    You should be embarrassed about Jihad/Harb/Qatal and the history of Dhimmitude and Sharia and the law of apostasy; and Umar’s unjust wars against the Persian Empire and the Byzantine Empire and the totality of Muhammad’s example of calling for fighting and subjugation of the earth by aggressive warfare, etc. and the whole history of Islam attacking everybody on all sides until they give up or submit, etc.

    You should be embarrassed about all the details of Muhammad’s sex life and bathroom and toilet habits all told about in the Ahadith.

    The Islamic terrorism that a certain percentage of Muslims do and/or approve of today (whether it is 2 % or 5% or 10% or 20% of over 1 billion Muslims, even 2% is a lot of people, and it is a danger to the whole world), justifying it by verses from Surah 9 and Ahadith.

    That the western world gave you the freedom to question and convert to Islam, but if were in a Muslim country, you would not have that freedom to question Islam or leave it.

    The west confesses its sins and injustices of the past (slave trade, Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, treatment of American Indians, racism, etc.) But Islam never confesses its wrongs and injustices, because Islam operates by the principle of “might is right” – power, force, subjugation, war. The very things that you are embarrassed about in British/English and western history, Islam has done much worse, without even confessing these things as wrong.

  29. Ken Temple says:

    Also, you, Paul Williams admit that you really believe this: (and you are not embarrassed by it)

    (who wants to restore the office of Khalif, and which theoretically, if accomplished, would then enable the Islamic world to make out all out war against the west, Israel, atheists, Buddhists, Hindus, and Christians, according to Surah 9:28-29 and 8:39 and many Hadith, too numerous to recount here.).

  30. Ken Temple says:

    Your comment about making all out war on Christians etc is something I have never said and is just silly.

    You have not written that precisely, but that is the implication of the restoration of the Khaliphate and unity of the Muslim world, the Ummah – the implication is that then, the Khaliph will have justification for calling for war against everyone else, which is what they did for centuries, from Muhammad to 1924. Modern Islamic terrorism is just frustrated with not having the Khalipate or unity in the Ummah, and they are taking the Sharia into their own hands and applying Surah 9:5 and 9:28-29 and 8:39 without the Khaliphate or unity being restored.

  31. Ken Temple says:

    The oldest source on the “Jihad against the lusts in the heart” is from Al Khatib Al Baghdadi, 1002-1071 AD, which is some 400 years earlier than Al Suyuti (1445-1505 AD) that your article about “Islam and War” references. (footnote 77)

    http://www.livingislam.org/n/dgjh_e.html

    Furthermore, the “Jihad against the lusts in the heart” are not in any of the Sahih Hadith Collections!!!! The Qur’an nor the Sahih (Al Bukhari nor Muslim) nor the 6 collections (other 4) of Sunni Hadith mention this “Jihad against lusts in the heart” or “against the Nafs” (the soul, the inside, ie, the fleshly, selfish, sinful desires)

    And that article at
    http://www.livingislam.org/n/dgjh_e.html calls it a weak Hadith.

    In light of this 26 page paper on Jihad from the Qur’an and the Sahih collections of Hadith and not some rare, late, weak Hadith, the argument of the paper, “Islam and War” by Joel S. A. Hayward is very very weak.
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Bailey/jihad.html

  32. Ken Temple says:

    You cannot reject the whole history of Islam in it’s aggressive warfare from Muhammad to 1924; and yet want the Khaliphate to be restored. You cannot have one without the other. The fact that they are a unity and they were following the Sunna of Muhammad, and that Islam is a unity of its religious rituals, social behavior, how to use the toilet, how to wash oneself, Sharia, apostasy laws, Dhimmitude, aggressive warfare, kissing the black stone and saying “although I don’t understand this, and it seems like idolatry, since we have to obey the Sunna, we do without asking questions as to its wisdom, etc.” (nuts ! ) – it is all one unity – “lock, stock, and barrel”. If you reject the history of aggressive warfare, then you have to reject the Qur’an and Hadith also.

  33. Ken Temple says:

    You didn’t read Sam’s documentation of it above and I also re-wrote it one of my comments – my comment above is an obvious paraphrase.

    Hadith that Umar said, “I would not have done that had I not seen the prophet himself kiss the black stone”

    Bukhari, Muslim and Abu Daw’ud reported that ‘Umar approached the Black Stone and kissed it. Then he said: “I know that you are A MERE STONE that can neither harm nor do any good. If I had not seen the Prophet kissing you, I would have never kissed you.”

    Al-Khatabi said: “This shows that abiding by the Sunnah of the Prophet is binding, regardless of whether or not we understand its reason or the wisdom behind it.”

    _________
    Muhammad and the aggressive warfare of Umar Ibn Al Khattab are included in unjust and evil aggressive warfare.

  34. Ken Temple says:

    The whole thing was unjust and evil – I cannot reprint the whole 26 page article by Richard Bailey and all the other articles on Jihad/Harb/Qatal and Surah 8:39, 9:5; 9:28-29. All of it was wrong and unjust by Islam; period. Attacking Byzantine, Egypt, N. Africa, Spain, and Persia and for 300 + years of forcing Persia, and N. Africa and Spain, etc. all the force and Dhimmism and subjugation and attacking Hindus, Buddhists, etc. – it was all wrong all the way until the Caliphate was abolished by Ataturk in 1924. the Ottomans siding with Kaiser Wilhelm in WW 1.

  35. Ken Temple says:

    Already read that a long time ago.
    I don’t accept Adnan Rashid’s thesis. Very anachronistic to take George Bush’s phrase of “The War on Terror” and put it back into the 7th Century.

    I already contributed a comment in that blog post a long time ago and you have reposted that article of Adnan’s several times and we discussed it earlier also.

    There are lots of problems with knowing for sure what the conquered people (Syrians, Copts, others; Persians, Ghassanids, Lakimids, etc.) thought, both at the beginning of the time of the conquering, and then later when the social and economic pressures of Jiziyeh and Dimmi-ism became so unbearable that people “converted” just to survive.

    Since Islam does not allow freedom to disagree; and no evangelism, and Muslims cannot leave Islam; of course we have no way of knowing what they really thought – most were too afraid to voice their opposition, but some Evangelical Copts, Lebanese, Jordanians and Syrians have told me over the years that they were deceived, and once Islam conquered, it was too late – there was no way to object, because the Dhimmis could be easily squelched and stopped and killed and no justice would be given them. most stayed quiet out of fear and just to survive. many have left the oppression over the centuries, going to the west to find freedom.

    There are other quotes from original sources and famous people like St. Sophrinus of Jerusalem and others that don’t tell the same tale that Adnan does.

  36. Ken Temple says:

    The comment I made at your posting of Adnad Rashid’s article:

    Problem is that Surah 9:28-29 tells us the reason for the Arab Muslim expansions of aggressive war was for money/income – getting the Jiziyeh from the people of the book, was the way to compensate for the loss of revenue from the pagans in Mecca, since the command there – from Surah 9:1-14 is to fight the pagans and they had no choice but to convert to Islam or die. Eventually Umar accomplished this by the Hadith tradition “that no two religions will be allowed in Arabia” – only Islam. And they attacked the Christians because “they believe not in Allah and do not forbid what Allah forbids” – 9:29. And because they call Jesus “Son of God” – 9:30. (But Jews never called Ezra “the Son of God”.)

    In Surah 9:28 says, “if you fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will . . . – next verse 29 – is the command to fight the people of the Scripture until they submit and pay the tax (Jiziye) and are humiliated – “being brought low”.

    Ibn Kathir’s commentary on 9:28 proves this:
    “and if you fear poverty, Allah will enrich you, out of His bounty.
    Muhammad bin Ishaq commented,
    “The people said, `Our markets will be closed, our commerce disrupted, and what we earned will vanish.’
    So Allah revealed this verse, وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ عَيْلَةً فَسَوْفَ يُغْنِيكُمُ اللّهُ مِن فَضْلِهِ (and if you fear poverty, Allah will enrich you, out of His bounty), from other resources, إِن شَاء (if He wills), until, وَهُمْ صَاغِرُونَ (… and feel themselves subdued).
    This Ayah means, `this will be your compensation for the closed markets that you feared would result.’
    Therefore, Allah compensated them for the losses they incurred because they severed ties with idolators, by the Jizyah they earned from the People of the Book.”
    Similar statements were reported from Ibn Abbas, Mujahid, Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Qatadah and Ad-Dahhak and others.”

    Ibn Kathir on Surah 9:29 –

    “This honorable Ayah was revealed with the order to fight the People of the Book, after the pagans were defeated, the people entered Allah’s religion in large numbers, and the Arabian Peninsula was secured under the Muslims’ control. Allah commanded His Messenger to fight the People of the Scriptures, Jews and Christians, on the ninth year of Hijrah, and he prepared his army to fight the Romans and called the people to Jihad announcing his intent and destination.”

    The whole Dhimmi ( ذ می ) system was based on that for centuries. Pact of Umar 1 and 2. They people felt liberated at first from the cruelties of the Byzantines, but later they were oppressed by the Muslims, as is evident down through the centuries by the Dhimmi system and they did not allow Christians to evangelize or spread their faith or build new churches.

    It may be true that the Byzantine Chalcedonians were too harsh against the Copts and Jacobite Syrians and some Nestorians in trying to enforce the Chalcedonian creed on them and sending troops into their areas; but that was not the reason or motive for the Islamic invasions. Anyway, Protestants agree that it was wrong for the State government to unite with the the church, as was done with Theodosius in 380-392 AD and under Justinian in the 500s. That was not Biblical at all.

    St. Sophronius, Patriarch of Jerusalem, and other writers did not agree that the Islamic invasions were a mercy and justice.

  37. Wow I see this conversation continued longer then I thought.

    Paul Williams I do have a question for you that I do hope you will answer and not as you said “can refute then so just ignore them” but I am wondering you use the term “right wing fundamentalist Christian” alot. I just wondering can u define that? I mean what is a Right Wing Fundamentalist Christian in your world view?

  38. Wow I see this conversation continued long after I thought it was dead.
    Paul I’m wondering if you could just answer at least one question instead of as you put it “can’t refute them just ignore them”.

    You use the phrase “right wing fundamentalist christian” alot. I’m wondering if you can tell me what that means to you? What is a “right wing fundamentalist christian” in your world view?

  39. Ken Temple says:

    Paul,
    Thanks for all that info. Most of it I already read/watched at your web-site. The Jonathan Brown video was interesting and I watched it a while back when you posted it your web-site, and, Lord willing, I will be making some comments on that later, as time allows.

    The biggest problem is that the unjust warfare and evil political doings of Caliphs was all commanded and exemplified by Muhammad himself. Abu Bakr’s wars against apostates and Umar’s unjust wars, etc. were out workings of principles that Muhammad laid down.

    The evils of the western Christian history were not commanded nor exemplified by the New Testament or Jesus or the apostles. (OT laws against apostasy are no longer, since there is no more Biblical Israel and we are under the New Covenant today.)

    Your book condones and commands your oppression (Surah 9:5; 9:28-29; 8:39) – our book does not condone it.

    The Bible explains the evil in the heart of man and the sin nature; and why politics and war always go wrong – because people are prideful, sinful, and evil at heart. But Islam, by saying people are good at heart, actually shows itself to be untrue. (Although the Qur’an and Hadith do also seem to affirm some kind of inherited sin/ sinful nature in man – as Sam Shamoun has pointed out.) that shows it has a real contradiction.)

  40. Abbas says:

    How are you Ken. I just by chance wandered into your blog. Your blog is also good like ours-Paul Williams blog.

    Ken, Your Lord Jesus Christ commanded the apostasy law and all the injustce verses in the Old Testament unless you accept Jesus as not God otherwise he Jesus(God) commanded the atrocities, injustice, wars and law of apostasy in the Bible.

    With regards to love, our Muslim God loves us that is why he created us and provides us with our needs(air, water, food, partners) free of charge. He sent down prophets and sometimes angels to guide us to his right path.

    He gave us a free will to choose between good and the bad unlike his other creatures like the angels.

    God of thunder, Goddess of sex, God of rain, God of sound etc. are all paganism and borrowing these type of phrases to say Love=God does not help

    I repeat love as a word verb, noun or adjective is not God himself, but can be one of his attributes. God sometimes loves and sometimes does not love, so cannot be love itself. God does not love bad people, so God is not Love but can love or cannot love.

    Our God deserves worship and praise but he does not need it. We Muslims humbles our selves by worshipping our God for his grace, mercy and salvation. We do not expect him to humble himself to us and become humiliated and slave for our salvation.

    Thank you.

  41. Ken Temple says:

    There was no safe haven at all for Christians; they were not allowed to evangelize or build new churches; the Jiziyeh and economic pressure and social pressure forced many of the nominal “Christians” to convert to Islam or immigrate and leave the oppressive Dhimmi system. That system is slavery and evil.

  42. Ken Temple says:

    Thanks Abbas for your visit and commenting here. Did you watch the entire video of John Piper’s message?

    and also, did you watch the other videos of his linked to in that series? “When I Don’t Desire God”

    I would encourage you to watch and listen to the whole thing first.

    Your comment about the OT commands were for Israel only and only at that time. Jesus took the kingdom of God away from Israel in Matthew 21:43-45 (see larger context of the parable beginning in Matthew 21:33 ff. There is no more Biblical Israel. I have written this maybe 20-50 times at Paul Williams blog. Why do you guys not understand that, or at least make arguments that understand the Christian view that the NT completes and fulfills the OT and so those punishment and war and apostasy verses no longer apply in the new covenant / church era?

    Christianity can say that – that those verses and passages – (Deut. 13, 7, 9, I Sam. 15) was only for that time and only for Israel; but Islam cannot say that about its commands to make war, since they continued to that all through history of Islam, and Surah 9 was either the last Surah revealed or next to the last; according to Al Bukhari it was the last. (Surah 9:5; 9:28-29; 8:39, many Ahadith – see also the article by Richard Bailey.
    http://www.answering-islam.org/Bailey/jihad.html

    Thanks for saying that my blog is “good”! In what way is it “good” ? Please check out my other articles and videos I link to.

    True Love comes from the true God – the God of the Bible – because God is love from all eternity – which we have already discussed many times – 1 John 4:8-21.

  43. Abbas says:

    My dear Ken

    Your site is good because it has articles like this one worthy of comments. Your Lord Jesus Christ commanded the law of apostasy and injustice laws in the Old Testament. You are living in a class house, so do not throw stones. Any time you accuse Muslims about any apostasy or war, you will be reminded about your Lord Jesus Christ commanding worse laws than that of the Quran.

    You know a Muslim will never stop bowing down to his God for his grace, mercy and salvation. Muslim will also never expect his creator to humble himself to him whether for love or affection. Muslims God loves everyone except those recalcitrant and disobedient people who did not his warnings seriously from the prophets, men of Gods, and angels.

    Your God revealed himself to you as 3 in 1 and you have seen him personally, so why blame the Catholics for drawing him(your God the know and have seen in Palestine some years back)?

    Tell the Christian Debater here with Bassam that, if a Holy will not meet unholy, then there will be no meeting at all between a Holy and Unholy.

    Thank you.

  44. bob says:

    Abbas,
    “…you will be reminded about your Lord Jesus Christ commanding worse laws than that of the Quran.”

    Of course, He is the Lord God Almighty, so His righteous and holy nature cannot but react with great indignation and wrath when confronted with wilful sin/crime. Sin is as great as the God that it offends. The Scriptures clearly point this out, from Genesis to Revelation.

    All the laws commanded by the God actually demonstrate how far short of his glory we fall, by exposing our hopeless sinful condition. No man can follow them.

    A Righteous, Holy Creator and Almighty Judge, an infinite God of infinite justice, cannot but require an overall account of and reckoning for sin and crime. He cannot simply forgive sins without atonement being made.
    But, he has provided a means of escape from this reckoning and punishment through sacrificing himself in our place. The price of redemption, which is infinitely beyond our means, could only have been paid for by an infinite God with infinite means.

    This exposes the folly of trying to gain salvation through works/good deeds.

    The doctrine of good works or deeds to gain salvation features strongly throughout the Koran where it will often say along the lines of, “those who believe and do good works/deeds.” 18:83, 22:55, 47:1, 84:23, 98:6

    Salvation through works is a delusion and an insult to God’s holiness. In fact, reliance on good deeds is idolatry.

    Salvation comes by faith alone.

    But the devil would have us running around trying to gain righteousness by our own efforts and good deeds, which to him is a comedy.

    • Ken Temple says:

      Everyone educated in the west learns about some aspects of this (that Jews escaped the Spanish Inquisition and found refuge in Ottoman Turkey) in High School, because we are rightly embarrassed about the bad aspects of the Spanish Inquisition (1300s – 1400s) and Crusades(1095-1299), etc. Of course, what we are not told is how the Muslims started all the injustices and aggressive wars for centuries with Umar in 636 onward.

      There is a lot of half -truths and historical revisionism and leaving out lots of details also. Christians communities survived if they submitted and payed the Jiziye tax and behaved themselves according to the Dhimmi system and Sharia law – no protests allowed; no freedom to preach or evangelize to Muslims. Those communities became ingrown and fearful and they were stomped on and suffocated by the Islamic elephant of dictatorial force and fear and punishments.

      Islam started all the unjust wars from 636 AD onward that caused the Crusades, etc. and Muslims and Caliphs continued these evils until they were stopped by others.

      History is a lot more complicated than a little almost 6 minute podcast.

  45. Ken Temple says:

    LOL – right Paul!

    Paul – your method is just to isolate verses or passages here and there, without any regard for the overall context of each book, and overall progressive revelation of God from the OT to the NT. By ignoring the context and the science of proper interpretation, you are just sneaky in trying to cause doubt. But all Christians who know the Bible can recognize your sneaky and dishonest methods.

    Psalm 50:5 – the godly ones, the true believers – are “those who have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice.”

    Jonah 1:16 – the Canaanite / Phoenician sailors repented and believed in the true God of Israel and offered a sacrifice to The LORD. (Yahweh)

    In Jonah 3 – just because the details about sacrifices are not repeated over again there, does not mean that Jonah as a faithful prophet of Israel would not explain who the God true is, what is God’s holiness and what is His demand for justice and propitiation (satisfaction of the wrath of God; the justice of God against sin) that is in the law of Moses.

    Jesus the Messiah showed us in Matthew 12:38-41 that the preaching of Jonah has content about the coming Messiah and His atonement sacrifice and His resurrection. In fact Jonah being in the stomach of the whale (or great fish) is a foreshadowing/sign/prophesy of the Messiah’s death and burial and His resurrection was typified by Jonah being spat out onto dry land by the great fish and when he was amazingly alive (he should have been dead), his being alive and preaching was a sign of the death and resurrection of the Messiah to come.

    I Kings 8 – another LOL goofy Paul Williams argument – I read your articles and comments on this long ago over at your blog. (which I don’t see you or others doing here – I don’t see anyone who gives any evidence of actually listening to and watching the John Piper messages.

    In 1 Kings 2:1-4, David charges Solomon to walk in ALL the commandments of the LORD in the law of Moses, and that includes all the laws of atonement and sacrifice in Leviticus chapters 1-7 and 16-17 – then in 1 Kings 6:1 and 11-14 this idea is repeated by God Himself to Solomon. I Kings 8:5 and 8:62 tells us the context of sacrificing many animals in blood atonement for sins. The repentance and prayers and “each one knowing the plague of his own heart” (8:38) and “praying towards this house” (repeated several times) is all understood in the context of the laws of sacrifice and atonement, which was the whole point of the temple. They had the book of Leviticus, it was not necessary to repeat all of those laws there again, in 1 Kings, in order for it to be understood.

    2 Chronicles 3:1 also teaches us that the temple was built on Mt. Moriah (Genesis 22), same place that Abraham offered up Isaac as the symbol of the lamb of God and the resurrection of Messiah; and it was the same place as the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite that David bought from him in 2 Samuel 24:18-24. All of this points to God’s holiness and the truth that there is no forgiveness of sins without sacrifice, and the final sacrifice was the Messiah Jesus.

    The Lord’s prayer in Matthew 6:12 – this is also understood in the context of the times, the Jewish temple was still standing there at that time that Jesus spoke those words; so a good Jew and disciple of Jesus would not divorce that one verse out and say that there is no need for also going to the temple for sacrifice and for the Day of Atonement (Lev. 16-17) This prayer is written before the event of the cross, so progressive revelation is coming, and Jesus in the same book of Matthew said, “The Son of Man did not to be served, but to serve, and to give His life a ransom for many” (Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45) – a clear prophesy of the Messiah’s atonement and propitiation (satisfaction of justice by substitutionary sacrifice.

    So, all of your arguments fail.

    • Ken Temple says:

      You just ignored everything I wrote, and what I wrote refuted you completely; and you ignored all the context of all those passages; and pasted some of your pre-written Islamic anachronistic and ignoring context -polemics.

      Your arguments fail – they are not convincing to anyone who will take the time to read all the passages in context and interpret them properly.

      Matthew 15:7-9 – quoting from Isaiah – “their hearts are far from Me” – that describes Islam rather than me – because in Islam, you have no way to get a new heart or cleanse your heart – there is no Holy Spirit in Islam and no doctrine of being born-again and getting a new heart. It is all external rituals and the Wudu / vuzu وضو cannot cleanse your sinful, selfish, prideful heart.

      All of Islam is a man-made religion by Muhammad etc. 600 years later who had no clue what the NT was about, got his information from Jewish fables and Mishna and Talmud and only hearing stuff and garbling it and corrupting words even, and from Apocryphal gospels – all man made religion. No spiritual power or depth in dealing with sin – Islam is dead, dry, external rituals. No spirit, no heart, no life.

      Which books of Piper did you read?

  46. Ken Temple says:

    Paul Williams wrote:
    Judging by your oft repeated arguments I would say you are an heir to what historians call the Radical Reformation –

    Not totally, (there may be aspects of it that are similar in some ways to modern Baptist Evangelicals who are Reformed also ) because I also believe in just war and capital punishment for murder and rape and certain kinds of kidnapping/enslavement (modern men who run sex-slave rings should be executed, IMO), as long as there is due process of law. The modern heirs of the Anabaptists are Mennonites and Amish, and they are the total pacifists. I am not a total pacifist. But human beings are great sinners and they usually do not carry out warfare or police work with infallibility. Mistakes have been made, and history is very complicated; but God is in control. (Psalm 47:8-9; Psalm 110; Revelation chapters 4-5)

    a view which believed Christianity was corrupted by the Roman Empire,

    You also agree with some of that (that the Son of God and Trinity came from pagan Greco-Roman influence – which we disagree with you on that); although in different aspects at different times. After 500-600 AD, Christianity was more corrupted than it was in the first 500 years. The first 400 there was no law of apostasy carried out – there was excommunication from churches for big sins – not the death penalty.

    that the church consists of true believers only, etc. but the Magisterial Reformers such as Calvin and Luther and of course the Catholic and Orthodox mainstream – all disagreed with your view that the apostasy verses no longer apply in the new covenant / church era.

    That is true, but that is not New Testament teaching and that is not the teaching of the first 400 or 500 years of Christianity. Roman Catholicism is not really official until the Middle Ages and did not formally anathematize itself until the Council of Trent in 1545-1563; and Eastern Orthodoxy as separate from the western church did not come into formal existence until 1054. The first 500 years was called “catholic”, but it was not “Roman Catholic”, as there was no single Pope, or bishop of Rome, who was considered over all other bishops in authority until centuries later.

    They all believed in a godly Christian society which advocated just war theory and implemented punishments for many kinds of sins (such as adultery, apostasy, homosexuality blasphemy etc).

    True. But I also desire and believe in a godly Christian society and just war and that evangelism and missions was allowed and sound doctrine proclaimed and healthy churches existed that would reach people’s hearts first then cause conversion and as a result of true conversions, societies would become more godly and holy. But I don’t agree with death penalty for adultery, etc. 1 Corinthians 5 – I see excommunication; not death penalty.

    Your religion Ken is a curious amalgam of secularism, Americanism
    How would you define “Americanism” ??

    and fundamentalist evangelicalism
    if you just mean one who believes in the fundamental = basic truths of Christianity and that the Bible is inspired by God, God-breathed, infallible, and inerrant in the original autographs, then yes. As you are also a fundamentalist Sunni Muslim.

    which has little or no resemble to the religion of Jesus whose disciple you have clearly never been.

    LOL – It is so goofy and unintelligent for someone to think that someone 600 years later, comes along and when he gets simple doctrines and facts and truths wrong and shows no evidence of knowing what the NT was about, to claim that is the true Jesus.

    It is you that were never a true Christian, nor disciple of Jesus, as you never had the Holy Spirit, because of your hatred for the precious truths of the Holy Spirit, atonement, Son of God, the Trinity. It was you who had intellectual knowledge of holy things, but they never were in your heart; you left Jesus and you disrespect Him – by your apostasy and hatred (exemplified in your constant Islamic polemics at your blog) toward the true Jesus of the NT – you are in danger of being in Hebrews 6:4-6 and 10:26-31 – you have insulted the Spirit of grace and trampled underfoot the Son of God, and have regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant”. (Heb. 10:29)

  47. Ken Temple says:

    After the temple was destroyed in 70 AD, the Jewish leaders and community that rejected Jesus as Messiah and final sacrifice had to explain that. So all modern Jews attempts to get around that is not credible at all.

    So any explanation of trying to water down or dismiss the sacrifices is a failure and ignores the massive amount of teaching on the substitutionary nature of the sacrifices in the OT – that point to the Messiah and His final sacrifice/atonement/ransom.

    Even the Qur’an admits this aspect of substitutionary ransom in 37:107; but Muslims deny that meaning, but the meaning is very clear.

  48. Ken Temple says:

    Paul, and any others:
    I am going to have to close this thread down, as it is just too long; and you repeat yourself too much now; and you haven’t shown that you even watched or listened to Piper’s message – not even one; and you bring too many subjects into the post.

    I am not banning you; I just want this thread to stop as we have pretty much covered everything that it seems that you are willing to deal with fairly.

    The other evidence you bring is irrelevant and I have already looked at it at your site and your links, etc. and we have already discussed a lot of that.

  49. bob says:

    “No so.”

    “Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.” Galatians 6:7

    “…and without the shedding of blood there is no remission.” Hebrews 9:22.

    “…of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.” Revelation 13:8.

  50. θ says:

    Evolution of Jesus’ divinity comes very late.
    Several facts that make the Trinity and Mary mediatrix unbelievable and very indefensible are:
    (i) A fact that nobody of disciples calls Jesus “God” after his resurrection, when he was still around with them awhile, even not after Thomas mistakenly calls him “the” God (the Father) in John 20:28.

    (ii) A fact that the Gospels – that were written after the time of Jesus’ ascension and under Spirit’s guidance – do not have audacity to ever call Jesus “God”.

    (iii) A fact that nobody of disciples and Paul called the Holy Spirit “God”, even not after Peter mistakenly calls him “the” God (the Father) in Acts 5:4.

    (iv) A fact that nobody of disciples and Paul called Mary “Theotokos” or “Lady” when she is still alive, or prayed thru her name, even not after the Holy Spirit guided the disciples.

    Those facts prove how the so-called “evolution” to call Jesus a God doesn’t start from the days after the resurrection (when Jesus was supposed to still be around with people), nor from the years of disciples and Gospels (when the Spirit was supposed to be around with people), but it comes later, after much time following that.

Comments are closed.