Was the Original Qur’an perfectly Preserved? What about Ubai Ibn Kaab and Ibn Masood?

A classic video by David Wood and Nabeel Qureshi of Acts 17 Ministries, that explores these questions. Worth watching again.  It goes well with Dr. White’s chapters on this subject (Chapters 10-11) in his book, What every Christian Needs to Know about the Qur’an.

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About Ken Temple

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a sinner who has been saved by the grace of God alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16), in Christ alone (John 14:6). But a true faith does not stay alone, it should result in change, fruit, good works, and deeper levels of repentance and hatred of my own sins of selfishness and pride. I am not better than you! I still make mistakes and sin, but the Lord is working on me, conforming me to His character. (Romans 8:28-29; 2 Corinthians 3:16-18) When I do sin, I hate the sin as it is an affront to God, and seek His forgiveness in repentance. (Mark 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:7-10; Colossians 3:5-16 ) Praise God for His love for sinners (Romans 5:8), shown by the voluntary coming of Christ and His freely laying down His life for us (John 10:18), becoming flesh/human (John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8), dying for sins of people from all nations, tribes, and cultures (Revelation 5:9), on the cross, in history, rising from the dead (Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 28, Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24; John 20-21; 1 Corinthians chapter 15). His resurrection from the dead proved that Jesus is the Messiah, the eternal Son of God, the word of God from eternity past; and that He was all the gospels say He was and that He is truth and the life and the way to salvation. (John 14:6)
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42 Responses to Was the Original Qur’an perfectly Preserved? What about Ubai Ibn Kaab and Ibn Masood?

  1. Jesus says:

    @ Ken

    Bringing the 2 jokers in the video and James White just shows that you have no scholars to quote on Quran . Why so ? , as even the western scholarship on Quran holds a position more or less similar to the Muslim position on the History of Quran . That shows how helpless you people are when it comes to Quran .

    We do not bring our apologists on the history of Bible , we bring Metzeger , Ehrman , Eldon Epp, David Parker . Gordon Fee etc .

  2. Ken Temple says:

    Everything that they quoted from is from Islamic sources! Hello!

    Ehrman and other liberals are the results of 300 years of liberalism and anti-supernatural bias.

    But Metzger was not as liberal as Ehrman and in fact Ehrman betrayed Metzger’s mostly conservative stance on the text.

    Gordon Fee is not liberal; don’t know why you put him in that group. Fee is a Pentecostal scholar, who personally beleives that a verse in 1 Cor. 14 was a later addition (but he has no evidence for that textually), but that still does not put him in the Ehrman, Parker, Epp camp.

    Even Epp and Parker have differing views with Ehrman and Metzger and Fee. They are all different. In order to make a proper case, you would have to show specifics of each one.

    But they have freedom to think and write.

    The Muslim world does not allow freedom to think and write and write things that the Qur’an was not inspired or that later redactors added to and changed the Qur’an all the time up until Uthman and even after him, because of the Hadith collections are all 200-250 years after Muhammad that shows historical context and Asbab ol Nusul. (Reasons for the Revelations)

  3. Jesus says:

    Both Ubay Ibn Kaab and Abdullah Ibn Masud believed in the perfect preservation of the Quran and taught the same to their students .Both Muslim and Western scholarship echo that .

    Ken , quote me a scholar who says Ubay Ibn Kaab and Ibn Masud had different Quran , grow up man stop quoting people who know the least about a topic at hand . I would advice you to read some seriously scholarly studies on it . The points which David and Nabeel bring are so under standard that they do not even call for an explanation .

    Add to it , you cant even spell Ubay properly !

  4. Ken Temple says:

    I have seen it spelled different ways in English, since any English spelling is a transliteration from the Arabic, أبي
    Ubai or Obai (Arabic: أبي) is an Arabic given name, most commonly transliterated as “Ubai”. also It is also sometimes transliterated as “Obai”, “Ubay”, “Ubai”, “Obay”, “Ubayy”, & “Obayy”

  5. Jesus says:

    Still waiting ….quote me a scholar who says Ubay or Ibn Masud had a different Quran .

  6. Jesus says:

    Show me a manuscript o Quran which has gross insertions and deletions , like we have it for the Bible .

    If u cant do the above things which i asked then u should accept that Quran is excellently preserved with out theological insertions and deletions unlike the Bible

  7. Ken Temple says:

    Abdullah Yusuf Ali ‘s footnote in his tranlsation of the Qur’an on Surah 33:6.

    In spiritual relationships the Prophet is entitled to more respect and consideration than blood-relations. The Believers should follow him rather than their fathers or mothers or brothers, where there is conflict of duties. He is even nearer–closer to our real interests–than our own selves. In some Qira’ahs, like that of Ubayy ibn Ka’ab, occur also the words “and he is a father of them”, which imply his spiritual relationship and connection with the words “and his wives are their mothers”. Thus his spiritual fatherhood would be contrasted pointedly with the repudiation of the vulgar superstition of calling any one like Zayd ibn Harthah by the appellation Zayd ibn Muhammad (33:40): such an application is really disrespectful to the Prophet.

  8. Ken Temple says:

    Ubayy ibn Ka’b (one of Muhammad’s most trusted reciters of the Qur’an) and Aisha (the “Mother of the Faithful”) declare that approximately two-thirds of Surah 33 is missing.

    Both passages are taken from Abu Ubaid’s Kitab Fada’il-al-Qur’an.

    Ibn Abi Maryam related to us from Ibn Luhai’a from Abu’l-Aswad from Urwa b. az-Zubair from A’isha who said, “Surat al-Ahzab (33) used to be recited in the time of the Prophet with two hundred verses, but when Uthman wrote out the codices he was unable to procure more of it than there is in it today.”

    Isma’il b. Ibrahim and Isma’i b. Ja’far related to us from al-Mubarak b. Fadala from Asim b. Abi’n-Nujud from Zirr b. Hubaish who said–Ubai b. Ka’b said to me, “O Zirr, how many verses did you count (or how many verses did you read) in Surat al-Ahzab?” “Seventy-two or seventy-three,” I answered. Said he, “Yet it used to be equal to Surat al-Baqara (Surah 2), and we used to read in it the verse of Stoning.”

  9. Jesus says:

    SCHOLARS ON VARIANT OF SURAH 33:6

    Ubay just had a lapse of mind on this issue…………

    عن بجالة التميمي ، قال : وجد عمر بن الخطاب مصحفا في حجر غلام له فيه : » النبي أولى بالمؤمنين من أنفسهم وهو أب لهم وأزواجه أمهاتهم ، فقال : احككها يا غلام ، فقال : والله لا أحكها ، وهي في مصحف أبي بن كعب فانطلق عمر إلى أبي بن كعب ، فقال : شغلني القرآن ، وشغلك الصفق بالأسواق
    It is reported from Bajala Al-Tamimi: ‘Umar found a Mushaf (manuscript) with a boy wherein it was written, ‘the prophet is closer to the believers than their own selves, and he is a father to them, and his wives are their mothers.’ He said, ‘Erase it O boy!’ The boy replied, ‘By Allah I will not erase it and it is so in the Mushaf of Ubay bin Ka’b.’ So ‘Umar went to Ubay bin Ka’b. [According to one narration he raised his voice unto him] Ubay replied; ‘[Occupation with] Qur’an causes me the lapse as you are caused a lapse by the noise in the markets …’ (Ibn Hajr’s Matalib Al-Aaliya Hadith 3777. Ibn Hajr classified it as Sahih)

    Same narration is found in Tafsir Abdul Razzaq Al-Sana’i 5/275 Hadith 2238 and Kanzul Ummal 2/569 Hadith 4746.

    This is also supported by the following narration in Sahih Bukhari;

    عَنْ ابْنِ عَبَّاسٍ قَالَ قَالَ عُمَرُ رَضِيَ اللَّهُ عَنْهُ أَقْرَؤُنَا أُبَيٌّ وَأَقْضَانَا عَلِيٌّ وَإِنَّا لَنَدَعُ مِنْ قَوْلِ أُبَيٍّ وَذَاكَ أَنَّ أُبَيًّا يَقُولُ لَا أَدَعُ شَيْئًا سَمِعْتُهُ مِنْ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ وَقَدْ قَالَ اللَّهُ تَعَالَى مَا نَنْسَخْ مِنْ آيَةٍ أَوْ نُنْسِهَا

    Narrated Ibn Abbas: Umar said, “Our best Qur’an reciter is Ubay and our best judge is ‘Ali; and in spite of this, we leave some of the statements of Ubay because Ubay says, ‘I do not leave anything that I have heard from Allah’s Messenger while Allah said: ‘Whatever verse (Revelations) do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten …’ (2.106)” (Sahih Bukhari, Hadith 4121)

    UBAY IBN KAAB AGREED WITH THE ESTABLISHED READING OF UTHMAN

    There is clear proof that Ubay agreed to the established reading without these words. The evidence is twofold;

    a- On Umar’s (RA) inquiry Ubay (RA) agreed that it was a lapse, albeit due to his being much occupied with remembering Qur’an, but lapse still.

    b- We know that Ubay (RA) was part of the twelve member committee appointed to oversee the standardization of the Qur’anic recitals, doing away with personal errors. See Ibn Abi Dawud’s Al-Masahif Hadith 72

    Had he any different opinion and evidence for it he must have argued and got the words into the standard text. While we do not find them in the manuscripts standardized under him we must conclude he was by then at par with other companions on this issue. Indeed the incident of ‘Umar (RA) coming to him took place much before this.

    NOW EVIDENCE

    Further the text of the Qur’an that all Muslims read today i.e. the so-called Mushaf of Uthman, was dictated to Zaid and co.- by Ubay and is according to the Qir’at of Ubay.

    عن عطاء أن عثمان بن عفان لما نسخ القرآن في المصاحف أرسل إلى أبي بن كعب، فكان يملي على زيد بن ثابت وزيد يكتب ومعه سعيد بن العاص يعربه، فهذا المصحف على قراءة أبي وزيد

    It is narrated from ‘Ata that when Uthman bin Affan got the Qur’an written in Masahif, he sent for Ubay, so he dictated the text to Zaid bin Thabit. Zaid wrote it and with him was Sa’id bin al-‘Aas who perfected its form. This (standard) Mushaf was according to the recitation (qir’at) of Ubay and Zaid.
    (Kanzul Ummal, Hadith 4789 Mo’ssas al-Resalah, Beirut, 1981 vol.2 p.587)

  10. Jesus says:

    THE NARRATION OF SURA 33 MISSING IS WEAK

    1- The narrations on this account are found in many collections like that of Ahmad, Hakim, Baihaqi, Ibn Hibban, Nasai [his Sunan al-Kubra], Tiyalsi and others. And from there it has been quoted by Ibn Kathir, Qurtubi and in Kanzul Ummal etc.

    2- The narration often quoted on this issue comes through Ubay bin Kaab , a famous companion of the Prophet (PBUH).

    Following is the text of the narration as found in Musnad Ahmad.

    عن عاصم بن بهدلة عن زر قال قال لي أبي بن كعب : كأين تقرأ سورة الأحزاب أو كأين تعدها قال قلت له ثلاثا وسبعين آية فقال قط لقد رأيتها وإنها لتعادل سورة البقرة ولقد قرأنا فيها الشيخ والشيخة إذا زنيا فارجموهما البتة نكالا من الله والله عليم حكيم

    It is narrated from Aasim bin Bahdala, he from Zirr, he said: Ubay bin Kaab said to me; “How much of Surah Ahzab do you recite or how much do you count [its verses to be]?” Zirr said that he replied, “Seventy-three verses.” Ubay said; “Only this much, verily I use to see it and it was equal to Surah Baqarah and we used to recite in it, ‘Whenever an aged man or aged woman commit fornication stone them as a punishment from Allah and Allah is All-Knowing, Wise.’” (Musnad Ahmad, Hadith 21245)

    3- All the collections have almost the same wording. In one collection we have some important additional words. We will allude to that in a while.

    4- Some scholars have authenticated this narration, some have termed it weak and apparently it seems that the narration is well established and comes through many routes as it is found in many Hadith collections.

    5- Following chart gives the route through which the narration is recorded in various collections;

    6- Now there are quite interesting observations to be made here;

    a- From Ubay (RA) only one person, Zirr is reporting this narration. This fact itself makes the case doubdtful.

    b- From Zirr, two people narrate this. One is Aasim b. Bahdala [Abi al-Najud] and other is Yazid b. Abi Ziyad.

    7- From them onwards there are multiple narrators but the point to note here is that scholars who has termed the narration as weak have criticized these two narrators.

    a- See the classification of Musnad Ahmad by Shaykh Shu’aib Arna’ut accompained by Aadil Murshid and Sa’id al-Ham, Al-Resalah publishers Beirut, 1999 vol. 35 p.134

    About the narration through Yazid bin Abi Ziyad they say;

    “The chain is Da’if (i.e. weak) due to the weakness of Yazid bin Abi Ziyad.”

    And about the narration through Aasim they comment;

    “The chain is Da’if (i.e. weak) – Aasim bin Bahdala – even if acceptable used to have inadvertences due to bad memory, so he alone cannot be relied upon in reports like this.”

    b- Similarly Shaykh Abdul Sami’ Abdul Bari al-Saygh in his research and explanation of the narrations from two companions, Jabir bin Samrah and Ubay bin Kaab, included in Musnad Ahmad has also criticized both these narrators. Commenting on the narration through Yazid b. Abi Ziyad he says;

    “The narration through this chain is Da’if (i.e. weak) because of the presence of Yazid b. Abi Yazid.” (p. 441)

    And commenting about the status of the narration through Aasim b. Bahdala he says;

    “The narration through this chain is Da’if (i.e. weak) for it includes Aasim and he is [otherwise] acceptable but used to have inadvertences.” (p. 439)

    The original title of the work is ‘Marwiyat al-Sahabayn Jalilayn Jabir bin Samrah wa Ubay bin Kaab fi Musnad al-Imam Ahmad’ published by Ummul Qura University, 1988 vol. 1

    c- Even classical scholars also questioned authority of this narration.

    Hafiz Nuruddin Haythmi (d. 807 A.H.) commented on this report saying;

    “In its chain is Aasim bin Abi al-Najud and he is Da’if (i.e. weak)” (Mawarid az-Zamaan, Hadith 1756)

    Similarly Imam Shahabuddin Ahmad al-Boseri (d. 840 A.H.) in his Ithaf al-Khira al-Mihra 5792 quotes this narration from, al-Tiyalsi; Ibn Hibban and Ahmad bin Muni and says;

    “Their chains depend upon Aasim bin Abi al-Najud and he is Da’if (i.e. weak)”

    Consider this and have a look at the chart above. We find that the narration is unacceptable anyway.

    Other weak narrations to this account:

    8- A similar narration from ‘Aisha (RA) is reported in al-Ittiqan (cf. Abu ‘Ubaid’s Fadhail al-Qur’an H. 700) but it is also extremely Da’if for in its chain is the narrator Ibn Lihiya who is well known to be unreliable. See al-Ittiqan with research by the committee of Markaz Dirasat al-Qur’ania section 47 pub. Saudi Ministry of Islamic publications p.1456

  11. Jesus says:

    @ KEN

    Stop quoting cheap polemical sites like answering Islam , it is quite clear tome that you are regurgitating their material here with out even analyzing .

    MY CHALLENGES STAND

    1) Quote me a scholar who says Ubay or Ibn Masud had a different Quran .

    2) Show me a manuscript oF Quran which has gross insertions and deletions , like we have it for the Bible .

  12. Ken Temple says:

    Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas: ‘Umar said, Ubai was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an) yet we leave some of what he recites.’ Ubai says, ‘I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Apostle and will not leave for anything whatever.” Sahih Al Bukhari 6:61:527

  13. Jesus says:

    Ken , shall we discuss the reliability of the BIble .I think you are well read on the Bible than on the Quran , where you are naive.

    I have read a good no. of scholars on the Bible from the books which i got from my university library , i would love to discuss it with u if u r willing ?

  14. Ken Temple says:

    I am just quoting your own sources and Muslim scholars. Three Muslim scholars: Al Bukhari, Yusuf Ali, and Abu Ubaid are Muslim scholars.

    I did not quote any commentary from “answering islam”.

  15. Jesus says:

    Again appealing to false narration , read my last post for the position of Ubay .

    Be honest Ken , you are quoting those sites .

  16. Ken Temple says:

    The subject of this post is about the preservation of the Qur’an.

    Besides, Paul Bilal Williams and Shabir Ally already constantly quote liberal and atheist and skeptical scholars and liberal scholars who “want their cake and eat it too” (What Geza Vermes said about Raymond Brown.) Raymond Brown and Dale Martin and James D. G. Dunn play games and separate the Jesus of history from the Jesus of faith, which is illogical and a deceptive method to try and keep their jobs, etc.

    Paul B. Williams already constantly brings up choice and cherry-picked quotes from James Dunn and Raymond Brown.

    He already uses Bart Ehrman and Geza Vermes a lot.

    There are thousands of other liberal scholars who don’t beleive in miracles or that God has spoken through revelation, angels, prophets, books, apostles. We in the West have 300 years of liberal scholars.

    Islam doesn’t allow that and kills those people.
    We don’t have much from Islamic scholars to choose from, because they are killed or afraid or will loose their jobs and be slowly poisoned, etc.

    That is why you have so much to choose from, regarding the Bible, because there has already been 300 years of skeptical and liberal and atheist and unbelieving (Kufr) scholarship about the Bible in the west.

    So, no; we are not discussing that here under this post; as that issue has already been beaten so much it is pointless to keep on.

    And Paul B. Williams is now rejecting my answers at his blog – because he cannot handle the truth and he cannot handle my reasonable answers. The reson why you don’t see an answer to Paul on the last few comments is because he is rejecting my answers.

  17. Ken Temple says:

    There is some evidence in Islamic sources, but not much.
    1. Since Uthman burned all the other copies and fragments and Qur’anic materials. (but the evidence shows that there was other Qur’an’s by Ubay Ibn Kaab and Ibn Masood.)
    2. Any questioning of the Qur’an in Islamic scholarship is met with persecution, loosing one’s job or jail or torture or execution in history of Islam.

    Killing people for freedom of speech is wrong and one of the biggest proofs that Islam is discedited; because it is afraid of freedom of speech and people disagreeing with it. It has a dictator spirit.

  18. Jesus says:

    There is a difference between what is present in Islamic sources and what is authentic .

    Muslim scholars of Quran agree unanimously to the preservation of Quran , what do u think are they not aware of those narrations u sited above ? . Western scholarship on Quran view the oral tradition with much skepticism but still hovers around ….. Quran being a early fixed text and they base their opinion on the manuscript evidence .

    EVIDENCE ….There are a whole lot of manuscripts of Quran dating from the very 1st century containing more than 80 % of text , more surprising the textual stability they exhibit .

  19. Ken Temple says:

    Because of the nature of Islam (force الجبر and dictatorship and war and violence and lack of freedom of choice and speech – apostasy laws, blasphemy laws) and the history of unjust wars and aggression on the Islamic side, and burning the other evidence (Uthman); your side does not have much credibility. At least the west is more honest about texual variants.

  20. Jesus says:

    ” burning the other evidence (Uthman); your side does not have much credibility. At least the west is more honest about textual variants.”

    LOL !

    Ken , u r a good person but the post u posted above just shows how skewed view u have about Quran , a view far away from academics .

  21. Jesus says:

    I will ask just one question to u …..

    If Uthman would really had destroyed Quran , what do u think would Muslims had done to him ? , plain answer to that is , he would have been cut into pieces .

  22. Ken Temple says:

    Not if he was the one with the power of government and the power of the Sword; besides, someone DID kill him and if they were’nt stopped, he WOULD have been cut up into pieces.

  23. Ken Temple says:

    Thanks for writing, “you are a good person”; but why does Paul Bilal Williams, when he runs out of arguments, start calling me names and a fool and a liar and “Islamophobe”, etc. ?

    He ran out of arguments, cannot answer me; so now he is rejecting my comments. Because he cannot deal with them. He has NEVER dealt with Mark 10:23-27 nor Mark 7:20-23; Matthew 5:21-26; 5:27-30 or my answers to his post on Original sin.

  24. Ken Temple says:

    Also, neither he nor Hyde have an answer on the fact that the Haddith on the “Jihad Al Nafs” is a weak Haddith from “The History of Baghdad” and from the Sixth Imam of Shiite Islam – Jaafar Sadiq. It is not in any of the six canonical collections of Sunni Hadith.

  25. Ken Temple says:

    It appears that Paul Bilal Williams has now gone underground, and marked his blog as “private”, which he does every now and then. I wonder if he goes back and deletes or edits comments he doesn’t like, or changes the order of posts or causes them to be hidden, so that no one can find them anymore. I just wonder. Looks suspicious to me.

    • Sam Shamoun says:

      I was about to ask you about that. These are clear signs (at least to me) of a very troubled human being who is on his way of apostatizing from his false religion. You wait and see.

      • Ken Temple says:

        We can certainly pray and hope for that; and not just leaving Islam, but that the Lord will open his heart this time. (Acts 16:14; John 6:44) and that it will not be an emotional experience like last time.

  26. Jesus says:

    I AM STILL WAITING KEN …….

    1) Quote me a scholar who says Ubay or Ibn Masud had a different Quran .

    2) Show me a manuscript of Quran which has gross insertions and deletions , like we have it for the Bible .

    If u cant then u should remove the shoddy polemical video which is based on zero scholarship.

    • Ken Temple says:

      I already gave you three – Yusuf Ali’s translation of the Qur’an. I have that Qur’an.
      Al Bukhari and Abu Ubaid.

      Also Aisha, who said that a goat came and ate some verses from the Qur’an.

      Granted, there is not as much as in the Bible, since there was no government who came along with the power of that state and force who, like Uthman, collected everything and formed one fixed text and burned all the rest.

      The Bible history is more honest about manuscripts and textual variants for all to see.
      That is why we also have so many scholars for you to find with comments on all these issues, along with 300 years of skepticism and doubt and unbelief, and the freedom to disagree.

      Your religion just does not allow that kind of freedom.

      • Jesus says:

        he he he , ho ho ho , common man Ken ! , another blind shot .

        Any way i like u dear . You r well behaved , soft spoken and good just like Jesus Christ and i should say u r my brother in Christ as i like Christ too !

        You follow all what Christ said , but leave out the 1st commandment what he gave .

  27. Jesus says:

    YOU SAID

    ” Since Uthman burned all the other copies and fragments and Qur’anic materials. (but the evidence shows that there was other Qur’an’s by Ubay Ibn Kaab and Ibn Masood.”

    LOL , again poor point . Get facts right bro , u r wrong .No scholar says that

  28. Ken Temple says:

    No; it is an excellent point.

  29. Ken Temple says:

    Here is a post I wrote a while back at another blog that asks why there are no inscriptions of Surah 4:157 at the Dome of the Rock? nor are there any comments on 4:157 in the 6 collections of Sunni Hadith. Why? Does this also not show that the Qur’an went through stages of redaction and editing?

    http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2011/12/dome-of-rock-inscriptions-why-no.html

  30. Ken Temple says:

    I appreciate the compliments of being well behaved. That is a good testimony with Muslims. My heart’s desire is to provide good apologetic answers and also be respectful and act like Jesus, by the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit.

    If so, then why does Paul Bilal Williams resort to insults and calling me names and then put his blog on “privacy” – which seemingly went into right after he would could not answer my questions or arugments ?

  31. Jesus says:

    You said u want to act like Christ , u behave well but u neglect the foremost commandment he gave of believe in 1 God .

    No responsible New Testament scholar will say Jesus preached or taught the Trinity , on the other hand all will agree that as a Jew , Jesus preached the Jewish understanding of one God .

    Listen to Jesus Christ , Ken .

    • Sam Shamoun says:

      Wow! This guy is really digging a hole for himself. Let us see what responsible NT Testament scholarship has to say about the historical Jesus and his followers.

      There is no responsible NT scholar that would deny that Jesus was killed by crucifixion.

      There is no responsible NT scholar who would deny that Jesus’ followers claimed to have seen post-mortem appearances of Christ which convinced them that he had been raised from the dead and led them to proclaim his resurrection.

      There is no responsible NT scholar who would deny that Jesus’ own followers went around preaching that Christ had not only been raised, but was now ruling from heaven at God’s right hand as the risen and exalted Lord.

      There is no responsible NT scholar who would deny that both Jesus and his followers referred to God as Father, even employing the Aramaic word Abba to denote the intimate relationship they enjoyed with God.

      The last two points directly contradict the Quran which denies that Muhammad’s god is a father to anyone in any sense of the term, and further denies that Allah shares his dominion over creation with anyone, especially with a son (cf. Q. 3:189; 5:18; 9:30; 17:111; 19:88-93; 21:26).

      Therefore, if you keep on listening to Jesus, brother Ken, then you have no choice but to condemn Muhammad as a false prophet who preached a false message and worshiped a false god.

      Yes Ken, do continue listening to the risen Lord Jesus!

  32. Ken Temple says:

    Trinitarians have always believed in only one God. Every Trinitarian affirms the Shema of Mark 12:29 and Deut. 6:4

    I do listen to Jesus. He affirmed the Trinity by defending His Deity in Mark 14:60-62 and Mark 2:28 – “The Son of Man is Lord (kupios – κυριος – the way the LXX translates Yahweh יהוה ) of the Sabbath Day” – claiming He created the Sabbath Day in Genesis 2, etc.

    He defended His eternality and Deity in John 17:5; and Thomas praised Him as God and Lord – John 20:28.

    He received worship all through all the gospels. Matthew 2:1-12; 14:33

    He taught the Holy Spirit would come and proceed from the Father. (John chapter 14, 15:26; chapter 16)

    He spoke the words of the Trinitarian formula for baptism in Matthew 28:19.

    So, I do listen to Jesus.

    See also my earlier article and James White’s video:https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/08/14/every-trinitarian-affirms-the-shema-dr-james-white/

  33. Sam Shamoun says:

    Here is some exciting news. Farhan Qureshi, who was a former Muslim that debated David Wood, Nabeel Qureshi, James White, myself and others, has not only abandoned Islam but is now defending the Deity of Christ in debate against Muslims! Pray for his salvation: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFS2ADVjEV0

    • Sam Shamoun says:

      BTW, pray that God delivers him from his new age/hindu understanding since his pantheism and panentheism is coloring his reading of the Holy Bible as you will see after reviewing the debate. Like I said, he is close but not there yet which is why we need to continue to pray for his salvation since God is able to enlighten him to the truth.

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