In Islam, there is a lack of the holiness/justice of God, and a lack of the fullness of the love of God, since it denies the atonement of Christ

James White explains the gospel, in one of his debates with Sammy Zaatari.   ( I cannot figure out which debate this was from. It does not look like the 2 that I know about that are on the internet)

Islam denigrates the holiness of God; exalts the ability of man to work his way to God; makes light of our own sins; twists the meaning of the cross and atonement as the Father forcing Jesus to pay for our sins when the truth is Jesus took our sins voluntarily.   (Mark 10:45; John 10:18)

Here is the Hadith that was referenced:

Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, “Amongst the men of Bani Israel there was a man who had murdered ninety-nine persons. Then he set out asking (whether his repentance could be accepted or not). He came upon a monk and asked him if his repentance could be accepted. The monk replied in the negative and so the man killed him. He kept on asking till a man advised to go to such and such village. (So he left for it) but death overtook him on the way. While dying, he turned his chest towards that village (where he had hoped his repentance would be accepted), and so the angels of mercy and the angels of punishment quarrelled amongst themselves regarding him. Allah ordered the village (towards which he was going) to come closer to him, and ordered the village (whence he had come), to go far away, and then He ordered the angels to measure the distances between his body and the two villages. So he was found to be one span closer to the village (he was going to). So he was forgiven.”

Sahih Al Bukhari (Volume 4, book 56, no. 676)

It is amazing to me that anyone thinks that is a compelling story of the mercy of God.  The justice and holiness of God is trampeled upon, and physical things like traveling, and the distance of land between cities are somehow an indication of sincerity?

Furthermore, Islam claims that man can actually be sincere in his heart.  The truth is no one is righteous or sincere and only by Christ’s death and by the Holy Spirit changing our hearts can we even begin to be sincere in our repentance.  We need a need new heart.  (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:1-21)  Also, angels are not mediators because they did not become human, as Jesus did become human and truly took our sins. (John 1:14, Philippians 2:5-8; Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21)

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About Ken Temple

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a sinner who has been saved by the grace of God alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16), in Christ alone (John 14:6). But a true faith does not stay alone, it should result in change, fruit, good works, and deeper levels of repentance and hatred of my own sins of selfishness and pride. I am not better than you! I still make mistakes and sin, but the Lord is working on me, conforming me to His character. (Romans 8:28-29; 2 Corinthians 3:16-18) When I do sin, I hate the sin as it is an affront to God, and seek His forgiveness in repentance. (Mark 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:7-10; Colossians 3:5-16 ) Praise God for His love for sinners (Romans 5:8), shown by the voluntary coming of Christ and His freely laying down His life for us (John 10:18), becoming flesh/human (John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8), dying for sins of people from all nations, tribes, and cultures (Revelation 5:9), on the cross, in history, rising from the dead (Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 28, Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24; John 20-21; 1 Corinthians chapter 15). His resurrection from the dead proved that Jesus is the Messiah, the eternal Son of God, the word of God from eternity past; and that He was all the gospels say He was and that He is truth and the life and the way to salvation. (John 14:6)
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34 Responses to In Islam, there is a lack of the holiness/justice of God, and a lack of the fullness of the love of God, since it denies the atonement of Christ

  1. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: It is amazing to me that anyone thinks that is a compelling story of the mercy of God. The justice and holiness of God is trampled upon”

    God’s Mercy is above Law.
    When you talk about a heavenly thing, the earthy one should be dismissed.
    Justice is a matter of Law. Law guides the sense of Morality and serves the equality among men, hence it has the earthy dimension beside heavenly one. On other hand, God’s Mercy is purely heavenly.

    “Ken Temple says: and physical things like traveling, and the distance of land between cities are somehow an indication of sincerity?”

    Sincerity is an earthy things.
    When you talk about an earthy thing, the heavenly one should not be counted.
    Earthy thing is measured by earthy yardsticks. Sincerity is measured by willingness to ask forgiveness, willingness to stop the sin (justification), and willingness to do a goodness.

    “Ken Temple says: Furthermore, Islam claims that man can actually be sincere in his heart. The truth is no one is righteous or sincere and only by Christ’s death and by the Holy Spirit changing our hearts can we even begin to be sincere in our repentance. We need a need new heart. ”

    In the Hadith, not only the repentant’s invisible heart inside, even externally the distance of 2 villages gets changed by the power of the Holy Spirit (Allah’s command).
    “….Allah ordered the village (towards which he was going) to come closer to him, and ordered the village (whence he had come), to go far away, and then He ordered the angels to measure the distances between his body and the two villages. So he was found to be one span closer to the village (he was going to). So he was forgiven.” Bukhari, Volume 4, book 56, Hadith 676.

    A common mistake of Christians on the topic of repentance is they keep contradicting the earthy thing (Law for men) with the heavenly thing (Mercy by God). Justice is a matter of Law for men. God’s Mercy cannot be measured by Law.
    Law has earthy dimension beside heavenly one. God’s Mercy is pure heavenly.

    • Ken Temple says:

      God’s Mercy is above Law.

      Tell that to Saudi Arabia, Iran, Taliban, ISIS, Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al Shabab, ISIS in Lybia, etc. Not much mercy in those places/groups.

      When you talk about a heavenly thing, the earthy one should be dismissed.
      Justice is a matter of Law. Law guides the sense of Morality and serves the equality among men, hence it has the earthy dimension beside heavenly one. On other hand, God’s Mercy is purely heavenly.

      You seem to separate the earthly things/events too much from heavenly matters. What about hell? Is not hell God’s eternal justice? You seem to say justice is only about God’s law carried out on earth. Yet Islam also believes in hell.

      Heavenly matters and matters of hell are both spiritual truths/realities that God has decreed.

      “mercy triumphs over judgment/justice” – James 2:13 – see the large context of James 2:1-13 – it is about our mercy – if we show mercy, it is more powerful than our judgment/legalistic adherence; but it can be that way because the Judge of all the earth will be the one who does the final judgement on judgement day; and His judgment is just and pure and right. God has the right to send people to hell. God can show mercy because of the atonement of Christ. The tax-collector who knew himself to be an unworthy sinner, said, “O God, be propitious to me (have mercy on me because of the atonement), the sinner!!” (Luke 18:13) (the word is a unique word that is different than the other words for “mercy”. Those that cry out for mercy based on God’s justice at the cross get mercy. The two men in Luke 18 went to the temple (place of sacrifices/ lambs/sheep slaughtered). They prayed after offering atoning sacrifices. The sacrifices of the temple pointed to the Messiah Jesus. See other articles:

      https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/02/18/refuting-paul-bilal-williams-on-luke-18-and-the-doctrine-of-justification/

      http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2012/01/holiness-of-god-and-substitionary.html

      The substitutionary atonement satisfied the wrath of God against sin; justice was satisfied. God has mercy because His wrath/justice is satisfied. that is why we don’t have to take personal vengeance or revenge. (see Romans 12:18-20) It seems that Islamic cultures have a high tendency to take revenge and do honor killings or have high levels of anger.

      There is even a verse about that in the Qur’an – Surah 9:14
      “Fight them; Allah will punish them by your hands and will disgrace them and give you victory over them and satisfy (healed) the breasts (hearts) of a believing people.” (I noticed the root word of “satisfy” is healed.

      It seems that the anger and revenge in the hearts of the Muslims can only be healed/satisfied is by fighting/killing (Qatl / قتل )

      Maybe that is because there is no atonement in Islamic theology – there is no divine justice that has quelled the anger and spirit of revenge in the hearts of Muslims, because Islamic theology rejects the atonement of the Messiah, which satisfied the wrath and justice of God against sin.

    • Ken Temple says:

      . . . there was a man who had murdered ninety-nine persons. Then he set out asking (whether his repentance could be accepted or not). He came upon a monk and asked him if his repentance could be accepted. The monk replied in the negative and so the man killed him.

      The guy’s heart was not changed, so the whole story is ridiculous and it is an emphasis on external things like traveling, distance, physical efforts to reach a village, etc. Distance being changed by Allah is not a heart attitude change, but some kind of physical external change. Islam is still focused on the outward external things – rituals, distance, wudhu وضو , etc.

      amazing that you don’t see the problems with this story and it’s empty meaning.

      • θ says:

        The Hadith just proves a tricky thing of judging a hidden thing, that is, it is like a guessing game. In fact, nobody can judge what is inside conclusively, not even angels.
        How can we be sure that a “changed” heart would not apostate again?
        It is possible the guy’s heart had really changed along his journey until then he met a “holier-than thou” monk who caused him to change again.

  2. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: The truth is no one is righteous or sincere and only by Christ’s death”

    God doesn’t need the sacrifice. Christians never learn God’s Mercy, they wrongly keep trying to measure God’s Mercy (heavenly matter) with Law (earthy thing of sense of justice).

    In fact, Christians realise that Jesus’ death is just a tricky mechanism to end a tedious daily Levite Priesthood, once for all, not more no less, to be replaced by a more simpler sacrifice which they called “ultimate sinless Lamb’s sacrifice”.

    Mostly Christians realise that actually Jesus’ death can’t abolish Moses’ Law (sin of Homosexual for example that is one of 613 laws apart from 10 Commandments), it just abolished the semi-caste system of Levite Priesthood because it is too burdensome, costly, and tedious.

    • Ken Temple says:

      God does not “need” anything. But He does demand justice and His justice was through the sacrificial system, culminating in the final eternal sacrifice for sin, Jesus the Messiah, the lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. John 1:29

      Why did God set up the sacrificial system in the tabernacle and temple? (Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, 1-2 Kings, Isaiah 53, etc.) ?

  3. θ says:

    More or less the condition of Moslems is like Jew’s in the Tanach.
    i) Moslems are now hated by Anti-immigrant politicians and Islamophobes in the West just as Jews were hated so much by an isolationist Persian Haman.

    ii) It is said by Qur’an Q.5, v.82 that we Moslems tend to be much closer to Christians due to our shared belief in the Christ status of Jesus. However, it hinted an otherwise reality how Jews tend to be much closer to us Moslems due to our shared belief in the Monotheism. Jews are permitted by Rabbis to pray in mosques, but not in churches.

    iii) Jews celebrate Purim annually as a success of their “Stealth Judaisation” outside of Israel under Esther, and we Moslems have the so-called the “Art of Political Islam” (which Islamphobes termed as “Stealth Jihad”) in the West, under an iconic inspiration of Joseph’s story.

    • Ken Temple says:

      Qur’an Surah 5:82:
      “You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and those who associate others with Allah ; and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, “We are Christians.” That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant.”

      The verse seems to say a lot different than what you have written. It says that the Jews are in animosity (hatred, violence, malice, ill-will) and yet the Christians, monks, priests – are humble and live holy and pious lives.

      Interesting.

      • θ says:

        As I said earlier, Qur’an just “hinted” (making inference, not implicitly) an otherwise reality, because it uses the word “priests” at both Q.5, v.44 and Q.5, v.82.

        Qur’an in Q.5, v.44 infers how Rabbis or Rubaniyyun along with most Jews who followed their Rabbis (Judaisers or observant of Law) tend to be much closer to us Moslems. Most readers of Qur’an mistakenly overlooked the term. Both verses Q.5, v.44 and Q.5, v.82 happen to use 2 similar words on the priests.

        Jews are permitted by their Rabbis to pray in mosques, but not in churches, due to our shared belief in the Monotheism.

        Qur’an just infers, not implicitly, because beside not all Jews follow their Rabbis, Jews forget how they already “closer” to us Moslems due to our spacial bound of nearness on Jerusalem.

  4. Ken Temple says:

    More or less the condition of Moslems is like Jew’s in the Tanach.
    Except there are some Muslims (but 10 percent (?) is too much; still a lot of people) who want to cause problems all over the world and establish Caliphate again (ISIS, Boko Haram, Al Shabbab, ISIS in Lybia, etc.) or cause problems all over the world (Al Qaeda), or are too extreme in their own country/ area (Taliban in Afghanistan, Hamas in Gaza, Hezbollah in Lebanon; Shiite version Iranian government in Iran; Wahabi Saudi Arabia, parts of Pakistan, etc.)

    Jews don’t do that much violence – not even close.

    i) Moslems are now hated by Anti-immigrant politicians and Islamophobes in the West just as Jews were hated so much by an isolationist Persian Haman.

    How do you define “Islamophobes” or “Islamophobia” ?

    “Anti-immigrant politicians” – there is a reasonable caution that is temporary until they can be vetted and screened and other terrorist Muslims learn to behave themselves, so that western countries can tell that the immigrants will be noble and good citizens.

    . . . we Moslems have the so-called the “Art of Political Islam” (which Islamphobes termed as “Stealth Jihad”) in the West,

    The Muslim Brotherhood was exposed and discovered in the Holy Land case that they themselves admitted that they will do “stealth Jihad” and take advantage of the liberal laws and freedoms and at the same time destroy the west from within. They admitted this themselves; and they called it “civilizational Jihad”.

    The following is the official document from a 1991 meeting which outlines the Muslim Brotherhood’s strategic goals for North America. The document was entered as evidence in the 2008 Holyland Terror Funding Trial. Federal investigators found the document in the home of Ismael Elbarasse, a founder of the Dar Al-Hijrah mosque in Falls Church, Virginia, during a 2004 search. Elbarasse was a member of the Palestine Committee, which the Muslim Brotherhood had created to support Hamas in the United States.

    The original document in Arabic follows the English translation.

    We have highlighted in yellow the following quotes which are of particular significance. The page numbers noted below correspond to the page numbers in the center of the bottom of each page in the document).

    Page 4:

    “Enablement of Islam in North America, meaning: establishing an effective and a stable Islamic Movement led by the Muslim Brotherhood which adopts Muslims’ causes domestically and globally, and which works to expand the observant Muslim base, aims at unifying and directing Muslims’ efforts, presents Islam as a civilization alternative, and supports the global Islamic State wherever it is.”

    Page 5:

    “…the Movement must plan and struggle to obtain “the keys” and the tools of this process in carry out [sic] this grand mission as a ‘Civilization Jihadist’ responsibility.”

    Page 7:

    “The process of settlement is a ‘Civilization-Jihadist Process’ with all the word means. The Ikhwan [Muslim Brotherhood] must understand that their work in America is a kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and ‘sabotaging’ its miserable house by their hands and the hands of the believers…”

    “[W]e must possess a mastery of the art of ‘coalitions’, the art of ‘absorption’ and the principles of ‘cooperation.’”

    Page 18:

    “A list of our organizations and the organizations of our friends” – This is where the Muslim Brotherhood listed its front groups in the U.S.. Note that prominent organizations like CAIR, ISNA, ICNA and others are named here.

    The page numbers above correspond to the page numbers in the center of the bottom of each page in the document.

    Documented here:

    http://www.clarionproject.org/Muslim_Brotherhood_Explanatory_Memorandum

    • θ says:

      At least we Moslems do not celebrate our “stealth Jihad” or “civilizational Jihad” whereas Jews in Israel and the West do in Purim annually.

      • Ken Temple says:

        So you admit that Muslim Brotherhood was caught with this plan to take over the west?
        Do you think those documents and plans are a good thing?
        It seems like you do by “At least we Moslems . . . ” – you approve of this “civilizational Jihad”?

        How do you define “Islamophobes” and/or “Islamophobia” ?

  5. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: So you admit that Muslim Brotherhood was caught with this plan to take over the west?Do you think those documents and plans are a good thing?It seems like you do by “At least we Moslems . . . ” – you approve of this “civilizational Jihad”?How do you define “Islamophobes” and/or “Islamophobia” ?”

    Document is hoax (even a propaganda to destroy Moslem’s good reputation) until it is verified to be signed by the organisations. As usual mostly it is invented by Zionists who got inspired by the Protocol of Zion.
    The use of words “eliminating and destroying the Western civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house” as mentioned at the page 7 is reckless, foolish, unpractical and unislamic, it must be a big mistake. Our Moslem’s enemy is not a spacial civilisation such as East or North, but the Islamophobes.
    To win over the hearts of the West by using peaceful (non destructive) means is something the Jihad warfare can never do.

    “Ken Temple says: Do you think those documents and plans are a good thing?”

    No, rather it is unintelligent, irrational, and unislamic. Since when has the Western civilisation been synonymous to the evilness?
    Is the West a child of Satan? or apes?
    Is the West a place where the seat of Devil stands?
    Is the word “civilisation” equal to satanism?
    No.

    “Ken Temple says: you approve of this “civilizational Jihad”?How do you define “Islamophobes” and/or “Islamophobia” ?”

    The so-called “civilisational Jihad” is the legitimate effort of winning the hearts of Non-Moslems with non-military means.
    Islamophobia is Anti-Islam in any forms.

  6. Ken Temple says:

    Document is hoax (even a propaganda to destroy Moslem’s good reputation) until it is verified to be signed by the organisations. As usual mostly it is invented by Zionists who got inspired by the Protocol of Zion.

    It was proven in a court of law. The book was found and done by the organizations (Muslim Brotherhood) themselves. It is amazing to me that when you are backed up against the wall with clear evidence, you blame it on the Jews and Zionists and conspiracy theories!

    You have no logic.

    You seem unwilling to honestly look at the problems with Islam itself. (Qur’an, Ahadith, Sira, history of Islam, violence; aggressive warfare, slavery of women for sex (“whom your right hand possesses”, etc.), Shiite vs. Sunni violence; honor killings, sinful anger; blaming the Zionists, etc.

    You need to define “Islamophobia” better. “Anti-Islam in any forms” is not clear enough. So, a person who disagrees with Islam as a religion/doctrine/system of law and government is an “Islamophobe”?

    So, all Christians, and all secularists and atheists and Jews are inherently “Islamophobes”, by not accepting Islam?

    Muslims use “Islamophobe” as a way to shut down conversation and criticism, like the homosexuals who shout, “homophobe!!”.

  7. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: It was proven in a court of law. The book was found and done by the organizations (Muslim Brotherhood) themselves. It is amazing to me that when you are backed up against the wall with clear evidence, you blame it on the Jews and Zionists and conspiracy theories!”

    Only Zionists can fool a court so easily. Take that as compliment.
    Has the court questioned Mohammed Akram who allegedly wrote it? How many times has it verified the draft to him? when did he write it? where? by who? alone or group?
    At most, as counterintelligence game, the Brotherhood organisation could easily disavow any knowledge of the existence of the draft, beside to claim that the draft is still far undercooked and needs to be amended or corrected a lot thru an internal review by the Brothers’ leadership in Egypt.

    Court can’t prove that draft was genuine or fake, let alone to be signed by the Americans organisations, let alone to be verified to the writer. Clearly a job of cunning Zionists. A court mistakenly forgets to verify the “found document” that may be planted by the accusers or their accomplices.

    “Ken Temple says: You seem unwilling to honestly look at the problems with Islam itself. (Qur’an, Ahadith, Sira, history of Islam, violence; aggressive warfare, slavery of women for sex (“whom your right hand possesses”, etc.), Shiite vs. Sunni violence; honor killings, sinful anger; blaming the Zionists, etc.”

    Beheading videos, violence-rated movies, books such as Bhagavath Gita, Book of Numbers, Protocol of Zion, History of Crusader, Mein Kampf, Talmud, et cetera inspired the criminal-minded people to do violence and to hate Jews by race.
    Zion is not a race but place.

    “Ken Temple says: So, all Christians, and all secularists and atheists and Jews are inherently “Islamophobes”, by not accepting Islam?”

    The coined term “Islamophobia” is a good lesson to remind us that not all thing attached to a name “Islam” is good. From what I read on the internet concerning the problem of the Moslem radicalism, there’s a growing trend that nobody of Non-Moslems conceals anymore their happy feeling of having the radicals to reduce the number of Moslems on their behalf. For them, it reduces a lesser evilness.

    Islamophobes are like those who pour gasoline on Moslems whereas the radicals lit a fire.
    Islamophobes are like those who hold Moslem feet whereas the radicals chop with sword.

    So, it is quite weird why Islamophobes still conceal their feeling. They owe thanks to the radicals, They should give allegiance to ISIS, Al Qaeda, Taliban, Boko Haram, et cetera because they takfired us Moslems around the world.
    Islamophobes have to give allegiance to them because they bombed our holy city of Madinah.
    Islamophobes have to give allegiance to them because they burned Moslems.
    Islamophobes have to give allegiance to them because they reduced the number of Moslems.

    “Ken Temple says: You need to define “Islamophobia” better. ”

    What we need at least of the Non-Moslems is simply a neutral manner like which their Western leaders appreciated toward Islam, that Islam is peace.

  8. Ken Temple says:

    “Ken Temple says: You seem unwilling to honestly look at the problems with Islam itself. (Qur’an, Ahadith, Sira, history of Islam, violence; aggressive warfare, slavery of women for sex (“whom your right hand possesses”, etc.), Shiite vs. Sunni violence; honor killings, sinful anger; blaming the Zionists, etc.”

    You wrote:
    Beheading videos, violence-rated movies, books such as Bhagavath Gita, Book of Numbers, Protocol of Zion, History of Crusader, Mein Kampf, Talmud, et cetera inspired the criminal-minded people to do violence and to hate Jews by race.
    Zion is not a race but place.

    Except those Muslims don’t look at those books or movies, and they themselves (the Islamic terrorist groups) say that they are inspired by the Qur’an and verses from Ahadith and Sira, Al Tabari’s History of Islam and Tafsirs and Fiq rulings.

    For example: Surah 47:4
    Sahih International:
    “So when you meet those who disbelieve [in battle], strike [their] necks until, when you have inflicted slaughter upon them, then secure their bonds, and either [confer] favor afterwards or ransom [them] until the war lays down its burdens. That [is the command]. And if Allah had willed, He could have taken vengeance upon them [Himself], but [He ordered armed struggle] to test some of you by means of others. And those who are killed in the cause of Allah – never will He waste their deeds.”

    فَإِذَا لَقِيتُمُ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا فَضَرْبَ الرِّقَابِ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا أَثْخَنتُمُوهُمْ فَشُدُّوا الْوَثَاقَ فَإِمَّا مَنًّا بَعْدُ وَإِمَّا فِدَاءً حَتَّىٰ تَضَعَ الْحَرْبُ أَوْزَارَهَا ۚ ذَٰلِكَ وَلَوْ يَشَاءُ اللَّهُ لَانتَصَرَ مِنْهُمْ وَلَٰكِن لِّيَبْلُوَ بَعْضَكُم بِبَعْضٍ ۗ وَالَّذِينَ قُتِلُوا فِي سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَلَن يُضِلَّ أَعْمَالَهُمْ

    and this one: Surah 5:33

    SAHIH INTERNATIONAL
    “Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,”

    إِنَّمَا جَزَاءُ الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الْأَرْضِ فَسَادًا أَن يُقَتَّلُوا أَوْ يُصَلَّبُوا أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُم مِّنْ خِلَافٍ أَوْ يُنفَوْا مِنَ الْأَرْضِ ۚ ذَٰلِكَ لَهُمْ خِزْيٌ فِي الدُّنْيَا ۖ وَلَهُمْ فِي الْآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ

    Sin is always lurking in the hearts of human beings. (Mark 7:20-23; Jeremiah 17:9-10; Genesis 6:5)
    They read verses like these, and their sinful and violent and angry selves ( نفس اماره ) is ignited like dry grass when a match touches it and it can lead to a massive fire that destroys acres.

  9. Ken Temple says:

    It is also interesting that Surah 5:32 – “if anyone murders anyone, it is as if he has murdered the whole human race” – this is from the Talmud.

    But verse 33 shows the context as the Qur’an uses it; and this verse is abused a lot in the media.

  10. Ken Temple says:

    Only Zionists can fool a court so easily. Take that as compliment.
    Has the court questioned Mohammed Akram who allegedly wrote it? How many times has it verified the draft to him? when did he write it? where? by who? alone or group?
    At most, as counterintelligence game, the Brotherhood organisation could easily disavow any knowledge of the existence of the draft, beside to claim that the draft is still far undercooked and needs to be amended or corrected a lot thru an internal review by the Brothers’ leadership in Egypt.

    Court can’t prove that draft was genuine or fake, let alone to be signed by the Americans organisations, let alone to be verified to the writer. Clearly a job of cunning Zionists. A court mistakenly forgets to verify the “found document” that may be planted by the accusers or their accomplices.

    No matter how much evidence is given, you still say, “it is the cunning Zionists” ! Amazing.

    Like not believing established history of the crucifixion of Jesus. All you can do is say, “La!” لا !
    = No!

    You are not rational.

  11. Ken Temple says:

    He is not a Zionist. He is a Muslim, obvious from his name. (Haroon Ullah)
    I would add that the Islamists promise meaning, order, higher purpose, change by quoting Qur’anic verses or Hadith passages. (even if they are taken out of context and no matter that Fiq rulings in history have said they are not legitimate authority to take the law into their own hands. Islamists/ Jihadists are claiming the authorities are corrupt, so they think they are justified to take the law into their own hands and do violence.)

    • θ says:

      “Ken Temple says: Islamists/ Jihadists are claiming the authorities are corrupt, so they think they are justified to take the law into their own hands and do violence.”

      Let me ask you, why does the West preemptively interfere and invade Arab lands? Because the West is afraid of possibility if ISIS, Taliban, AlQaida, Boko Haram et cetera would step in the West. Now if a prevention (of something that is still a probability and has not yet happened) can legitimate the use of violence, what do you think of a worse fact which the extremists suffered that Israel already invaded their Moslem land? Israel’s invasion is no more a probability or something that is not yet happened, but in reality it has happened.

      Suppose that 2016 is the past Iraq war in the 90s, Saudi Arabia is the US, ISIS is American army, Arab Salafi or Wahabbi is CIA, and Ben Laden is today’s Donald Trump. How should Trump react when he finds his beloved state the USA allows ISIS and Wahhabi operatives to have a military base in his city New York? Trump would have set KKK as the patriotic liberation army.

      Hence, what the Non-Moslems never acknowledge and never realise is they never confess or feel that they are guilty of doing violence first on us Arabs and Moslems, especially how they have allowed their “Jewish” terrorists to invade and have a terror state on our Arab soil.

      Nevertheless, we Moderate Moslems understand fully why many Arabs turn to be extremists and terrorists on a pretext of Arab’s liberation and revenge, and we know why the West has not yet acknowledged the bloods on its hands and sins of violence in our Arab lands. Education is the answer.
      We Moderate Moslems need to educate the West that it is the West who started the violence thru Jewish terrorism on Arab lands, not Arabs.

      • Ken Temple says:

        No; Omar Ibn Al Khattab, the 2nd Caliph, around 636 AD onward, started the whole history of aggressive warfare by the injustice of attacking and conquering the Byzantine Empire and the Persian Empire. Iranians today are turning away from Islam because they see the true nature of an Islamic Sharia government (even though it is Shiite form, not much difference in practice.)

        Since that that was done by Omar and subsequent Muslims there was unjust; centuries later, after Ottoman Empire fell (1918 and process until 1924 with abolishment of Caliphate), and was justly punished for joining Germany in WW I, the land of Israel was no longer under an Islamic government. The Ottomans were the government before then, not the Arabs in so called “Palestine”. The Ottoman Turks were justly punished and so there was no more legitimate government until 1948. (The British Mandate in between since the Allied powers won WW 1). There was never a “Palestinian State” government there; the Ottoman Turks were the government for centuries there.

        Mind you, I am not a “Christian Zionist” – that is, I don’t believe that 1948 is a fulfillment of prophesy, as many dispensational Christians and Pentecostal/Charismatic Evangelicals do. They think it is a fulfillment of the promise of Ezekiel chapter 37 to return to the land. I don’t agree with that view. (a lot of the TV preachers preach that; I don’t agree with that.)

        I appreciate 2 books that are more balanced that the typical “Christian Zionism”/ Pre-tribulation – Pre-Millennial view of end times. Blood Brothers by Elias Chakour is very good and very sympathetic to the injustice done to Palestian Arabs in the 1948 war. Also Whose Promised Land? by Colin Chapman is good and you might appreciate a lot in those 2 books. I recommend them.

        But I do think that that original 1948- 2 state plan was a just idea, to give both the Jews a homeland and also more than half was for the Arabs there, which later became “the Palestinians”. The problem is that the Muslims never accepted that the Jews could have even that little bit, kept attacking first, and lost every time. As a result of the Muslims never accepting any Jewish state at all, they kept loosing more and more land and then lost Jerusalem in 1967.

        Most of the modern Jews in Israel are not believers in Christ (the Messiah), so one cannot expect them to just “give up”. Most are atheists, agnostics, and secularists. But we also pray for them and the peace of Jerusalem. (Psalm 122)

        One of the biggest problems was the years of deception of the PLO and Yasser Arafat (who was caught lying in English, but said other things in Arabic in different contexts. And Hamas is evil, and they have in their charter those Hadith that say, “we will fight the Jews until the day of resurrection; and “there is a tree or rock with a Jew behind them; come and kill them” – that proves the evil of Islam that is inherent in that religion and that the Jewish state is on the side of justice and protecting themselves from Hamas and PLO terrorists. Even even though Israel sometimes makes some mistakes.

        https://www.amazon.com/Blood-Brothers-Dramatic-Palestinian-Christian/dp/0800793218

  12. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: He is not a Zionist. He is a Muslim, obvious from his name. (Haroon Ullah)”

    It is like a Stockholm Syndrome. A victim is blinded by the illusion that the criminal was a victim of other criminals. Different than Pakistanis and Afghans who don’t see inavsion, Arabs get humiliated by three losses of war against terrorists, extremists and Jihadis from the Bible.

  13. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: Except those Muslims don’t look at those books or movies, and they themselves (the Islamic terrorist groups) say that they are inspired by the Qur’an and verses from Ahadith and Sira, Al Tabari’s History of Islam and Tafsirs and Fiq rulings.”

    Judaist Jihadis and their Christian Jihadis succeed in setting a JS (Jewish State) on our Arab lands. How about that?
    Nevertheless, we Moderate Moslems understand fully why many Arabs turn to be extremists and terrorists on a pretext of Arab’s liberation and revenge, and we know why the West has not yet acknowledged the bloods on its hands and sins of violence in our Arab lands. Education is the answer.
    We Moderate Moslems need to educate the West that it is the West who started the violence thru Jewish terrorism on Arab lands, not Arabs.

    • Ken Temple says:

      . . . we Moderate Moslems understand fully why many Arabs turn to be extremists and terrorists on a pretext of Arab’s liberation and revenge, . . .

      Yes, I can actually understand that point, given their presuppositions and understandings of Islam and history. (and victimhood mentality) That is, if you think that what Omar Ibn Al Khattab, the 2nd Caliph was just and good, and all that followed was part of Allah’s plan to make the whole world the Dar Al Islam, then that is understandable. It seems part and parcel of Islamic doctrine and understanding that Islam has the right to conquer the whole world and attack the Dar Al Harb or Dar Al Fitneh.

      But the Israel-Palestinian issue, in my opinion, does not directly relate to the wars in Iraq or Afghanistan, etc. (though Al Qaeda and Ben Laden tied a lot of their motivation to that issue.)

      • θ says:

        The blame-game on Omar has been refuted by a stronger historical fact that he just returned the land (Judean region and Jerusalem) belonged to Arabs once thru Herodian dynasty (Arab-Idumean ancestry).
        (i) Wife of Antipater is Cypros the Nabatean, a relative of Aretas King of Arabia.
        (ii) Phasael son of Antipater is Governor of Jerusalem, Herod was Governor of Galilee.
        (iii) Wife of Herod is Mariamne I of the Hasmonean dynasty.

        Jerusalem had once belonged to the Arabs since the time of Antipater who appoints his Arab-Idumean son Phasael as Governor of Jerusalem alongside his younger brother Herod as Governor of Galilee.
        Josephus in his Antiquities.18:5 speaks of Phasael as a brave and noble man. Herod honored his brother’s name by naming a tower of his palace at Jerusalem “Phasaelus”.

        Herod became a legitimate king of Jews because he legally married Mariamne I of Hasmonean dynasty, hence Herod took the role as a sole ruler of Judea, giving the title of basileus (king) for himself, ushering in the Herodian Dynasty (Arab-Idumean monarchy), and notably ending the Jewish Hasmonean dynasty by causing the death of Mariamne I his own Jewish wife. Josephus reports this as being in the year of the consulship of Agrippa and Gallus (37 BCE).

        Hence, Phasael was Arab-Idumean Governor of Jerusalem, and Herod was the first Arab-Idumean king who ruled over Judea and Jerusalem.

        From Roman geopolitical consideration the Herodian Dinasty was not truly a puppet kingdom of the Romans, because Herod was appointed by “illegitimate” Senate of the defunct Roman Republic that the Triumvirate generals (Octavius, Mark Antony, Marcus Lepidus) divided among themselves under three military dictatorships after the battle of Philippi where they defeated Brutus and Longinus.
        On other hand, from the Hasmonean perspective the Herodian Dynasty is a continuation as well as new form of the independent Judean kingdom due to marriage between Arab-Idumean Herod and Jewish Mariamne I.

  14. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: Like not believing established history of the crucifixion of Jesus. All you can do is say, “La!” لا ! = No! ”

    Ken, you are a typical Jewish Wahhabi who doesn’t see the bloods on your Jewish Jihadis in invading our Arab land, and setting a JS (Jewish State).
    Al Banna, Qutb, Maududi, Ben Laden, et cetera were losers who never set a IS in the West.

    Theodore Herzl is the grand father of Jewish terrorism. Your pro-Israel Evangelical church is akin to a Wahhabi organisation that radicalised your fellow Christians and Jews to keep maintaining a JS on our soil, thru sermons and political lobby.

    You should be honest to accept your mistake by acknowledging the bloods on your Jewish hands and sins of violence in our Arab lands. Education is the answer.
    We Moderate Moslems need to educate the West that it is the West who started the violence thru Jewish terrorism on Arab lands, not Arabs.

    • Ken Temple says:

      No; as I wrote above; Omar the 2nd Caliph started all the unjust violence and wars first.

      I don’t approve of everything the modern state of Israel does; but I can see how they just want to survive with 1948 borders, but the Muslim Arabs never accepted that, and once the Israelis won Jerusalem again in 1967, it is hard to imagine that they would surrender that, since the Muslims attacked first and lost, and since that is the historical city of David where David and Solomon ruled – the golden age of Israel in the Bible – 1-2 Samuel, 1 Kings, Psalms, etc. (1000 BC – 586 BC; then after they came back from exile in Babylon, later under Persia, Greece, etc. 536 BC to Greek period to Roman period to 70 AD)

      The Jews of first century AD were mostly exterminated and driven out of the land of Israel, those that survived the wars were expelled by the Romans in 70 AD and 135 AD (The Bar Kokhba Rebelliion).

      They were persecuted in European and Russian lands for centuries; and their desire to return to the land seems reasonable from a human point of view; after the Holocaust especially, and since the Ottomans were justly punished after 1918, Islam lost that land because they were the unjust aggressors of World War 1, joining with Germany.

      God is in charge of history and Sovereign over what He allows; which you as a Muslim agree with; so you must understand God is in charge of things, even though He allows sin and injustice and evil to happen.

      • θ says:

        Jews were not the winner of WW1.
        Jews took over Palestine from Canaanites, and the Arab-Idumean dynasty replaced it thru marriage (marriage between Herod and Mariamne I). Herod’s mother was Cypros the Nabatean Arab.

    • Ken Temple says:

      I am not Jewish; my ethnicity is mostly Scottish and English. (came to America in the 1600s)

  15. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: Whose Promised Land? by Colin Chapman. ”

    I have read a lot of books concerning the invasion of Canaan region by many nations, including by Jews. Mostly those books overlooked significance of Arab’s claim on the lands. There’s almost zero honesty in the books that traced the History of the land. Mostly they see thru Zionist bias. Only thru Herodian Dynasty the land is transferred peacefully from Jewish Hasmonean family to Arab-Idumean rulers. And mostly Jews hate that fact.

  16. Ken Temple says:

    Jews were not the winner of WW1.

    I never said that they were; but the Allied Powers (England, USA, France) won World War 1, and defeated the Ottomans, and worked to provide a 2 state solution for both Jews and Arabs; but the Arabs wanted it all, but the Jews accepted the 2 state solution and were willing to let the Arabs have half of the ancient land of Israel. Some Jews had bought land from wealthy Arab land owners from late 1800s to the 1920s and developed the land.

    Jews took over Palestine from Canaanites

    True; the book of Joshua. But Canaanites were not Arabs.

    The point about Herod is not legitimate, nor logical, since he was a puppet ruler placed there by the Romans over the Jews.

  17. θ says:

    Ken Temple says: The point about Herod is not legitimate, nor logical, since he was a puppet ruler placed there by the Romans over the Jews.”

    Yours is illogical. If Herod were a Roman puppet, Mariamne I of Jewish Hasmonean family (anti Roman empire) would not have married him.

    On other hand, from the Hasmonean perspective the Herodian Dynasty is a continuation as well as new form of the independent Judean kingdom due to marriage between Arab-Idumean Herod and Jewish Mariamne I.

    Herod’s appointment by “illegitimate” Senate of the defunct Roman Republic is a political nonsense. The Roman Senate was dissolved by the Triumvirate generals (Octavius, Mark Antony, Marcus Lepidus) who divided the Roman Republic among themselves under three military dictatorships after the battle of Philippi wherein they defeated Brutus and Longinus.

  18. Ken Temple says:

    Nope.

    Jesus looked at the Pharisees and Scribes/lawyers/ priests, high priest, Sanhedrin as the leaders of Israel, not the puppet king Herod. His half-ethnicity has nothing to do with who owns the land of Israel.

    “Behold, the Kingdom of God is being taken away from you and will be given to a nation that produces the fruit of it.”

    “And the Pharisees understood that Jesus was speaking about them.”
    Matthew 21:43-46

    (see full context and parable from Matthew 21:33-46 – all about how God is going to take the Kingdom of God away from Israel; and give it to the church, a “nation” made up of all nations – Revelation 5:9; 7:9; I Peter 2:9-10; Colossians 3:9-11; Galatians 3:28; Ephesians 2:11-21

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