Was Jesus cruel to the Canaanite woman? (Mark 7:24-30; Matthew 15:21-28)

Was Jesus cruel to the Canaanite /Phonecian woman by calling her a “dog” in Mark 7:24-30/Matthew 15:21-28?

In order to understand this passage properly, one must look at the context of what happened right before it in Mark 7:14-23 /Matthew 15:10, 15-20.    That pericope also flows naturally from what came before it in Mark 7:1-13/Matthew 15:1-9.  One could title the whole passage this way, breaking down the passage into three sections, because they relate to one another:

Mark 7:1-13 – the Word of God /Scripture is above all human traditions

Mark 7:14-23 – True cleanliness has to begin in the heart.  Our hearts are naturally unclean and sinful and sin begins in the heart of evil thoughts and motives, selfishness, lusts, pride, greed, jeolousy – the hidden internal sins.  They come out from us in our words and actions.  Uncleanliness is more an internal matter rather than external washings.  External washings cannot cleanse the heart.  We have to realize our hearts are sinful and that sin starts with evil thoughts and the selfish motives.

Mark 7:24-30 – Jesus tests the disciples’ racial pride in the heart by interaction with a Canaanite/Phoenician woman.

Mark 7:14-30

14 After He called the crowd to Him again, He began saying to them, “Listen to Me, all of you, and understand: 15 there is nothing outside the man which can defile him if it goes into him; but the things which proceed out of the man are what defile the man. 16  If anyone has ears to hear, let him hear.”
17 When he had left the crowd and entered the house, His disciples questioned Him about the parable. 18 And He *said to them, “Are you so lacking in understanding also? Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him, 19 because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” (Thus He declared all foods clean.) 20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

24 Jesus got up and went away from there to the region of Tyre. And when He had entered a house, He wanted no one to know of it; yet He could not escape notice. 25 But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately came and fell at His feet. 26 Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter. 27 And He was saying to her, “Let the children be satisfied first, for it is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 28 But she answered and *said to Him, “Yes, Lord, but even the dogs under the table feed on the children’s crumbs.” 29 And He said to her, “Because of this answer go; the demon has gone out of your daughter.” 30 And going back to her home, she found the child lying on the bed, the demon having left.

Mark 7:19 is pointing to more than foods – “by saying this, He declared all foods clean” – He is pointing to the acceptance of eating other foods with Gentile cultures, foods that were considered unclean in the OT are now no longer forbidden to eat. Jesus is telling the Jews to reach out to Gentile cultures and nations. Acts chapters 10-11 also shows this. Food is a deep part of culture. Accepting someone’s food and hospitality from another culture breaks down prejudice and is a great way to open doors for evangelism in other cultures. Jesus deliberately leaves Israel proper and goes into pagan areas of Tyre and Sidon where the Phoenicians (Canaanites) are. (Mark 7:24-30) This explains Jesus’ statement that, by itself, seems cruel (calling the Canaanite woman a dog, etc.), but He was mainly testing the Jewish disciples to see if they had learned the lesson of sinful uncleanliness in the heart.  The Jewish culture thought external washings of the hands and body made one clean before God.  Many other cultures and religions think this also today.  Islam has many ritual washings before they pray. But that external ritual cannot cleanse the heart.

20 And He was saying, “That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”  Mark 7:20-23

He also is testing her, and she passed the test by her attitude of humility and accepting the truth that she also is a sinner, “a dog”, so to speak.  (the form of the Greek word for “dog” here is the diminutive (small, petite) form, which meant a “house dog, small dog”, “pet dog”, not the wild street dogs.   She didn’t complain or whine about past injustices of the Jews, nor throw out the modern charge of “racism” or racial hatred or prejudice.  She realized she did not deserve mercy.  She realized she was from a wicked and pagan culture, a false religious system.  She was admitting she is a sinner, by agreeing she is a “dog”.  “Yes, but even the dogs get to eat the crumbs from the table.”  (Matthew 15:27) She knew God is merciful, and apparently even knew about the law of Israel that said the Jews were to let the poor and foreigners graze the corners of their fields.  (Leviticus 19:9-10; 23:22; Deut. 24:19; Ruth 2:2-7)   The Canaanite woman recognized Jesus for who is really is, calling Him “the Son of David” (the Messiah) and “Lord” (Greek: kurios) (Hebrew: Yahweh).  (Matthew 15:22, 23, 27; Mark 7:28)  

Mark 7:20-23 lists pride and foolishness in the list of internal sins. The sin of racial hatred of other cultures and ethnicities comes from sinful pride/arrogance/conceit.  Thinking one is better than another people group or ethnicity or skin color is sinful and arrogant.   Jesus was deliberately testing that in the disciples hearts.

Acts chapters 10-11 demonstrate this principle also.  The relation of food to a people group/ethnicity/culture is obvious in the passage.  The Lord was preparing Cornelius, a Roman Centurion, an ethnic Italian/Latin/Roman for the gospel.   The Lord gave Peter a vision of all kinds of animals (Acts 10:10-12), many were considered unclean and prohibited by the Mosaic Law for a Jew to eat.  Jesus told Peter, “rise, kill and eat”(Acts 10:13).  Peter said, “by no means, Lord, for I have never eaten anything unclean or unholy.”  (Acts 10:14) When Jesus says – “what God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy” (Acts 10:15) – He is pointing to the people/ethnicity – “no longer consider the Gentile nations unclean, but go and reach out to them with the gospel”.  “be willing to eat their food with them and talk to them about the gospel”.   The message of both Acts chapters 10-11 and Mark 7:24-30/Matthew 15:21-28 is – “don’t think the Gentiles cultures and ethnicities are unclean as people, rather reach out to them with the gospel, and eat their food with them, spend time with them, accept and give hospitality, and love them and share the gospel with them.”  Mark 7:19 – “by saying this, He declared all foods clean” – he was pointing to the pagan Gentile cultures, and by immediately going to the areas of Tyre and Sidon (modern Lebanon), the area the Romans called “Syro-Phoenicia”, Jesus shows He was deliberately going into an area and culture that ate different foods and the people were different ethnically, so He could test the disciples to see if they had learned the lesson of racial hatred and arrogance in the heart, which He had just taught them on in Mark 7:20-23.  

In Matthew 15:23, the attitude of the disciples is revealed.  Jesus was quiet at first, because He wanted to draw out a response from the disciples and expose their hearts.  (Matthew 15:17-20)  “But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” (Matthew 15:23)  The Jewish disciples did not want to deal with her.  She was a Canaanite or Phoenician, which was a very pagan culture and a cursed people in the Old Testament.  They were Canaanites in the land of Israel, and they were called Phoenicians outside of the land borders of Israel.  God judged them for their wicked religion (Deuteronomy 7, 9, Joshua), but even then, God waited 400 years to judge them, giving them opportunity to repent – Genesis 15:13, 16-18 – “for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete.”  The reason God took the Jews to Egypt for 400 years was to have mercy on the wicked pagan nations within the land of Canaan.  Even before the command to take the land of Canaan in the book of Joshua, God saved Rahab and her family because of their faith in the true God of Israel.  (Joshua chapter 2)

When Jesus said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” (Matthew 15:24), He was testing her and the disciples; He did not mean “forever”.  He was expressing the principle of God blessing His covenant people the Jews first, but He clearly taught that the disciples were to reach out to other nations.  (Matthew 24:14; 28:19)  You can almost hear the disciples nodding their heads and saying, “yeah, the Messiah is only for the Jews, the lost sheep of Israel”.  But Jesus shows this was not true.  God, from the beginning, said to Abraham, “I will bless you, . . . so that you will be a blessing to all the nations of the earth.”  (Genesis 12:1-3; 18:18; 22:18; 26:4; 28:14; 49:10)  See also Psalm 67, 96:3; Isaiah 49:6.

But the Gospel of Matthew itself shows a theme of the kingdom of God spreading to all the nations/Gentiles – By the mention of 3 women in Jesus’ geneology that were from foreign ethnicites – Tamar and Rahab were Canaanites, Ruth was a Moabites, and Bathsheba was he wife of Uriah the Hittite.  (Matthew 1:3-6); the Magi (probably made up of several people groups from the Persian Empire – wise men from different people groups -Persians, Medes (the modern Kurds come from the Medes), Arabs, Babylonians, and Assyrian peoples).  (Matthew 2:1-12)  See also Matthew 4:14 (Galilee of the Gentiles); Matthew 8:5-12 (healing of a Roman Centurion’s servant); Matthew 10:18 (after Jesus told the disciples to only go to the lost sheep of Israel in Matthew 10:5, He says that eventually, they will go to the Gentiles,  “you will go before kings and governors as a testimony to the Gentiles/nations”.  This shows that the command in Matthew 10:5 was temporary and was for a short-term missions trip to their own culture first.  The Jewish disciples needed to learn to reach out to their own culture first, then later they will go to the Gentiles/nations); Matthew 12:17-21 (quoting Isaiah 42, that the Messiah will be a light to the nations and bring justice to the nations); Matthew 24:14 – “this gospel of the kingdom must be preached to all the nations first, and then the end shall come.”; and Matthew 28:19 – “therefore, go and make disciples of all the nations”.

I actually had already written an earlier article on this issue.   (with more details)

Therefore, Paul William’s post here has been refuted.  (no longer there)

Also, point # 2 of the “8 things” that “The Friendly Atheist” posted by an apostate former pastor has also been refuted.  

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About Ken Temple

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a sinner who has been saved by the grace of God alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16), in Christ alone (John 14:6). But a true faith does not stay alone, it should result in change, fruit, good works, and deeper levels of repentance and hatred of my own sins of selfishness and pride. I am not better than you! I still make mistakes and sin, but the Lord is working on me, conforming me to His character. (Romans 8:28-29; 2 Corinthians 3:16-18) When I do sin, I hate the sin as it is an affront to God, and seek His forgiveness in repentance. (Mark 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:7-10; Colossians 3:5-16 ) Praise God for His love for sinners (Romans 5:8), shown by the voluntary coming of Christ and His freely laying down His life for us (John 10:18), becoming flesh/human (John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8), dying for sins of people from all nations, tribes, and cultures (Revelation 5:9), on the cross, in history, rising from the dead (Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 28, Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24; John 20-21; 1 Corinthians chapter 15). His resurrection from the dead proved that Jesus is the Messiah, the eternal Son of God, the word of God from eternity past; and that He was all the gospels say He was and that He is truth and the life and the way to salvation. (John 14:6)
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61 Responses to Was Jesus cruel to the Canaanite woman? (Mark 7:24-30; Matthew 15:21-28)

  1. θ says:

    Mt 15
    26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.
    Jn 8
    44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

    It is never in Islam to make hatred, murder, and lie 3 requirements to “love” God.
    It explains a Moral corruption of Christians that it is okay to be a murderer and a liar like Devil in order to love Jesus.
    How come Gospels depict Jesus of teaching people to hate (to love less) their brothers and the world before following him, if even to just love them less is counted as a murder and a lie?
    Lk 14:26
    If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    1Jn 3:15
    Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
    1Jn 4:20
    If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

  2. θ says:

    Rom 9
    13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

  3. Ninja says:

    Anas b. Malik reported that there was AN ORPHAN GIRL with Umm Sulaim (who was the mother of Anas). Allah’s Messenger saw that orphan girl and said: O, it is you; you have grown young. MAY YOU NOT ADVANCE IN YEARS! That slave-girl returned to Umm Sulaim weeping. Umm Sulaim said: O daughter, what is the matter with you? She said: Allah’s Apostle HAS INVOKED CURSE UPON ME that I should not grow in age and thus I would never grow in age, or she said, in my (length) of life. Umm Sulaim went out wrapping her head-dress hurriedly until she met Allah’s Messenger. He said to her: Umm Sulaim, what is the matter with you? She said: Allah’s Apostle, you INVOKED CURSE UPON my ORPHAN GIRL . He said: Umm Sulaim, what is that? She said: She (the ORPHAN GIRL) states you have cursed her saying that she might not grow in age or grow in life. Allah’s Messenger smiled and then said: Umm Sulaim, don’t you know that I have made this term with my Lord. And the term with my Lord is that I said to Him: I AM A HUMAN BEING and I am pleased just as a human being is pleased and I LOSE TEMPER JUST AS A HUMAN BEING LOSES TEMPER, so for any person from amongst my Ummah whom I curse and he in no way deserves it, let that, O Lord, be made a source of purification and purity and nearness to (Allah) on the Day of Resurrection. (Sahih Muslim, Book 032, Number 6297)

    This Chapter is also called SAHIH MUSLIM Chapter 23: HE UPON WHOM ALLAH’S APOSTLE INVOKED CURSE WHEREAS HE IN FACT DID NOT DESERVE IT

    Jesus is not Muhammad who CURSED AN INNOCENT ORPHAN GIRL

    ———————
    The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Lying is not permitted except in three cases: a man’s speaking to his wife to make her happy; lying at times of war; and lying in order to reconcile between people.[ Sahih Muslim]

    Lying to your wife when you’re have an illegal sexual intercourse with other woman is despicable , but somehow this act will earn you Allah’s love

    Abu Huraira reported Allaah’s Messenger (sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam) having said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life, IF YOU WERE NOT TO COMMIT SIN, ALLAH WOULD SWEEP YOU OUT OF EXISTENCE and He would replace (you by) those people who would commit sin and seek forgiveness from Allaah, and He would have pardoned them. . (Sahih Muslim)

    Despicable that we have to be IMMORAL IN ORDER TO EARN THE LOVE OF ALLAH

    and the more over we have to be beaten by this to satisfy the masochist Allah

  4. θ says:

    “Ninja says: WOULD SWEEP YOU OUT OF EXISTENCE”

    At best it just proved that Jesus needs to be a true Moslem in order to be saved.

  5. Ninja says:

    But Jesus has no Sin

  6. θ says:

    All sinners would claim innocence, too usual.
    Sin is what sinners do, not what sinners claim otherwise. Someone must be guilty of teaching Christians to be haters, murderers, liars and beaters:
    Lk 14
    26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
    Rev 2
    26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

  7. Ninja says:

    Anas b. Malik reported that there was AN ORPHAN GIRL with Umm Sulaim (who was the mother of Anas). Allah’s Messenger saw that orphan girl and said: O, it is you; you have grown young. MAY YOU NOT ADVANCE IN YEARS! That slave-girl returned to Umm Sulaim weeping. Umm Sulaim said: O daughter, what is the matter with you? She said: Allah’s Apostle HAS INVOKED CURSE UPON ME that I should not grow in age and thus I would never grow in age, or she said, in my (length) of life. Umm Sulaim went out wrapping her head-dress hurriedly until she met Allah’s Messenger. He said to her: Umm Sulaim, what is the matter with you? She said: Allah’s Apostle, you INVOKED CURSE UPON my ORPHAN GIRL . He said: Umm Sulaim, what is that? She said: She (the ORPHAN GIRL) states you have cursed her saying that she might not grow in age or grow in life. Allah’s Messenger smiled and then said: Umm Sulaim, don’t you know that I have made this term with my Lord. And the term with my Lord is that I said to Him: I AM A HUMAN BEING and I am pleased just as a human being is pleased and I LOSE TEMPER JUST AS A HUMAN BEING LOSES TEMPER, so for any person from amongst my Ummah whom I curse and he in no way deserves it, let that, O Lord, be made a source of purification and purity and nearness to (Allah) on the Day of Resurrection. (Sahih Muslim, Book 032, Number 6297)

    This Chapter is also called SAHIH MUSLIM Chapter 23: HE UPON WHOM ALLAH’S APOSTLE INVOKED CURSE WHEREAS HE IN FACT DID NOT DESERVE IT

    Jesus is not Muhammad who CURSED AN INNOCENT ORPHAN GIRL

    Jesus has no Sin , even Quran testifies this

    ———————

  8. θ says:

    “Ninja says:Jesus has no Sin , even Quran testifies this”

    Jesus of Qur’an is not crucified, not a sinner, not a God.

  9. Ninja says:

    Jesus of Qur’an is not a sinner

    at least you agree he’s not a sinner unlike the UNSTABLE EMOTIONALLY MUHAMMAD WHO CURSED AN INNOCENT GIRL {SAHIH MUSLIM} 😀

  10. θ says:

    “Ninja says:at least you agree he’s not a sinner ”

    Jesus will be a murderer of Dajjal Antichrist – even as a killer of pigs – in his Second Coming.

  11. Ninja says:

    θ sayseven as a killer of pigs

    Sorry if killing pigs offenses you, I don’t know if you’re somehow related

  12. θ says:

    “Ninja says: Sorry if killing pigs offenses you.”

    Jesus will be a killer of Dajjal and a destroyer of cross and crucifix.

  13. Ninja says:

    Sorry if killing Dajjal offenses you. I don’t know if you’re somehow related

  14. θ says:

    “Ninja says:Sorry if killing Dajjal offenses you.”
    Jesus will be a destroyer of cross and crucifix.

  15. Ninja says:

    θ says:destroyer of cross and crucifix

    Sorry if destroying cross offenses you

  16. θ says:

    “Ninja says:Sorry if destroying cross offenses you”

    That’s why you can love the terrorists as “Brothers in Christ”

  17. θ says:

    “Ninja says:Sorry if destroying cross offenses you”

    That’s why you can love the terrorists as “Brothers in Christ”

  18. θ says:

    “Ninja says:Sorry if destroying cross offenses you”

    Who can feel sorry if that’s why you can love the terrorists as “Brothers in Christ”

  19. θ says:

    Who is supposed to sacrifice himself?
    Son for father.
    Jn 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    vs. Father for son.
    2Cor 12
    14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

  20. Ninja says:

    2 Cor 12, about a human PHYSICAL PARENTS

    please don’t bring your mujasimah mindset over here

  21. Ninja says:

    This Chapter is also called SAHIH MUSLIM Chapter 23: HE UPON WHOM ALLAH’S APOSTLE INVOKED CURSE WHEREAS HE IN FACT DID NOT DESERVE IT

    Jesus is not Muhammad who CURSED AN INNOCENT ORPHAN GIRL

    Jesus has no Sin , even Quran testifies this

  22. θ says:

    “Ninja says:2 Cor 12, about a human PHYSICAL PARENTS”

    Is it impossible for the Father to be man?

  23. Ninja says:

    Is it impossible for the Father to be man..

    There’s no such thing…please leave your heretical Mujasimah mindset

  24. θ says:

    “Ninja says:There’s no such thing…”

    So the Father is not omnipotent

  25. Ninja says:

    So the Father is not omnipotent..

    So Allah is not impotent ?

  26. θ says:

    “Ninja says: So Allah is not impotent ?”

    Omnipotence is not everything. Allah can’t be a creation. Otherwise the word “omnipotence” becomes absurd.

  27. Ninja says:

    Omnipotence is not everything. Father can’t be a creation. Otherwise the word “omnipotence” becomes absurd.

  28. θ says:

    “Ninja says:Otherwise the word “omnipotence” becomes absurd.”

    But the Son becomes a creation, It doesn’t prove absurdity of omnipotence.

  29. Ninja says:

    But the Son becomes a creation?

    How can that be?

  30. θ says:

    “Ninja says:How can that be?”

    Person of Jesus died.
    Otherwise Qur’an is true that Jesus doesn’t die.

  31. Ninja says:

    Person of Jesus died.

    and Qur’an is PARTLY true that Jesus the KALAM NAFSI of Allah doesn’t die.

    Jesus is the NAFS of Allah remember ?

  32. θ says:

    “Ninja says: Jesus is the NAFS of Allah remember ?”

    So the Bible is false to have taught Jesus’s person died.

  33. Ninja says:

    the Bible is true to have taught Jesus’s humanity died

  34. θ says:

    Is person of Jesus a human or what?

  35. Ninja says:

    Is The nature of Word of Allah is CREATED Letter or what?

  36. θ says:

    “Ninja says:Is The nature of Word of Allah is CREATED Letter or what?”

    So person of Jesus died.
    The word of Allah never separated from Himself to become a creation.
    Who is supposed to sacrifice himself?
    Son for father.
    Jn 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    vs. Father for son.
    2Cor 12
    14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

  37. Ninja says:

    Is The nature of Word of Allah is CREATED Letter or what?

    Please answer ….

  38. θ says:

    No. The word of Allah never, and can’t be separated from Himself to become a creation.So person of Jesus died.
    Who is supposed to sacrifice himself?
    Son for father.
    Jn 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    vs. Father for son.
    2Cor 12
    14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

  39. Ninja says:

    θ says:The word of Allah(KALAM NAFSI) never, and can’t be separated from Himself to become a creation

    But according to Ibn Taymiyyah the NAFS of Allah can be separated when ALLAH DESCENDS

    Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah (may Allaah have mercy on him) said concerning this matter:

    “The correct view is that He descends and that He does not vacate the Throne. A person’s soul (NAFSI)remains attached to his body night and day until he dies, but when he is asleep it(NAFSI) ascends

  40. θ says:

    “Ninja says:“The correct view is that He descends and that He does not vacate the Throne. ”

    It is metaphor. Is Jesus a metaphor? Nobody can see the Unseen God.

  41. Ninja says:

    It is metaphor++

    So Allah DESCENDS is not LITERAL AT ALL then?

    you’re an ASHARIS now ?

  42. θ says:

    “Ninja says:It is metaphor++So Allah DESCENDS is not LITERAL AT ALL then?”

    Metaphor must be not literal.
    The word of Allah never, and can’t be separated from Himself to become a creation.
    So person of Jesus died.
    Who is supposed to sacrifice himself?
    Son for father.
    Jn 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    vs. Father for son.
    2Cor 12
    14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

  43. Ninja says:

    Please clariy your position

    Allah is upon the throne LITERALLY (WAHABIST position)

    or

    Allah is NOWHERE you can describe because it’s all METAPHORICAL according to ASHARIS

  44. θ says:

    Being upon the throne is a metaphor because none sees the throne yet.
    The word of Allah never, and can’t be separated from Himself to become a creation.
    So person of Jesus died.
    Who is supposed to sacrifice himself?
    Son for father.
    Jn 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    vs. Father for son.
    2Cor 12
    14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

  45. Ninja says:

    Please clariy your position

    Allah is upon the throne LITERALLY (WAHABIST position) and LITERALLY DESCENDS

    or

    Allah is NOWHERE you can describe because it’s all METAPHORICAL according to ASHARIS

  46. θ says:

    “Ninja says:throne LITERALLY (WAHABIST position) ”

    Literally, none of Wahhabists ever sees the throne.
    Being upon the throne is a metaphor because none sees the throne yet.
    The word of Allah never, and can’t be separated from Himself to become a creation.
    So person of Jesus died.
    Who is supposed to sacrifice himself?
    Son for father.
    Jn 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    vs. Father for son.
    2Cor 12
    14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

  47. Ninja says:

    ++none of Wahhabists++

    So the Wahabbist are committing Mujassimah then defining something INDEFINABLE?

  48. θ says:

    “Ninja says:++none of Wahhabists++So the Wahabbist are committing Mujassimah then defining something INDEFINABLE?”

    None of Wahhabists ever sees the throne. Hence, what they described as “literal” is a metaphor.
    Being upon the throne is a metaphor because none sees the throne yet.
    The word of Allah never, and can’t be separated from Himself to become a creation.
    So person of Jesus died.
    Who is supposed to sacrifice himself?
    Son for father.
    Jn 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    vs. Father for son.
    2Cor 12
    14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

  49. Ninja says:

    So Allah never DESCENDS LITERALLY and the Asharis are right then ?

    ALLAH DOESN”T HAVE A BODY, RESIDE NOWHERE , and NEVER DESCENDS ?

  50. θ says:

    None of Wahhabists ever sees the angels, 1st heaven, throne, let alone Allah. Hence, what they described as “literal” is a metaphor.
    Being upon the throne is a metaphor because none sees the throne yet.
    The word of Allah never, and can’t be separated from Himself to become a creation.
    So person of Jesus died.
    Who is supposed to sacrifice himself?
    Son for father.
    Jn 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    vs. Father for son.
    2Cor 12
    14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

  51. Ninja says:

    Being upon the throne is a metaphor

    Because according to Asharis The TRUE Sunnis THERE’S NO THRONE

    You’re heretic for imagining Allah Reside on the throne

  52. θ says:

    “Ninja says: Sunnis THERE’S NO THRONE”

    None of Asharis ever sees the throne, so how can they disprove it?
    None of Wahhabists ever sees the angels, 1st heaven, throne, let alone Allah. Hence, what they described as “literal” is a metaphor.
    Being upon the throne is a metaphor because none sees the throne yet.
    The word of Allah never, and can’t be separated from Himself to become a creation.
    So person of Jesus died.
    Who is supposed to sacrifice himself?
    Son for father.
    Jn 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    vs. Father for son.
    2Cor 12
    14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

  53. Ninja says:

    None of Asharis ever sees the throne, so how can they disprove it?

    So you believe allah reside some where and contained by space ?

    You’re a heretic according to TRUE ISLAM

  54. θ says:

    As in story of Moses, even the physical earth – space and time – can’t afford to be exposed by Allah’s light. None of Asharis ever sees the throne, so how can they disprove it?
    None of Wahhabists ever sees the angels, 1st heaven, throne, let alone Allah. Hence, what they described as “literal” is a metaphor.
    Being upon the throne is a metaphor because none sees the throne yet.
    The word of Allah never, and can’t be separated from Himself to become a creation.
    So person of Jesus died.
    Who is supposed to sacrifice himself?
    Son for father.
    Jn 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    vs. Father for son.
    2Cor 12
    14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

  55. θ says:

    As in story of Moses, even the physical earth – space and time – can’t afford to be exposed by Allah’s light. None of Asharis ever sees the throne, so how can they disprove it?
    None of Wahhabists ever sees the angels, 1st heaven, throne, let alone Allah. Hence, what they described as “literal” is a metaphor.
    Being upon the throne is a metaphor because none sees the throne yet.
    The word of Allah never, and can’t be separated from Himself to become a creation.
    So person of Jesus died.
    Who is supposed to sacrifice himself?
    Son for father.
    Jn 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    vs. Father for son.
    2Cor 12
    14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

  56. Ninja says:

    So you believe allah reside some where and contained by space ?

    So you believe ALLAH HAS ONLY HAS TWO RIGHT HANDS LITERALLY ?

    You’re a heretic according to TRUE ISLAM

  57. θ says:

    None of Wahhabists ever sees the angels, 1st heaven, throne, let alone Allah. Hence, what they described as “literal” is a metaphor.

    As in story of Moses, even the physical earth – space and time – can’t afford to be exposed by Allah’s light. None of Asharis ever sees the throne, so how can they disprove it?

    Being upon the throne is a metaphor because none sees the throne yet.
    The word of Allah never, and can’t be separated from Himself to become a creation.
    So person of Jesus died.
    Who is supposed to sacrifice himself?
    Son for father.
    Jn 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    vs. Father for son.
    2Cor 12
    14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

  58. Ninja says:

    So you believe ALLAH HAS ONLY HAS TWO RIGHT HANDS LITERALLY OR NOT ?

  59. θ says:

    None of Wahhabists ever sees the angels, 1st heaven, throne, let alone Allah. Hence, what they described as “literal” is a metaphor.
    None of Asharis ever sees the throne, so how can they disprove it?

    As in story of Moses, even the physical earth – space and time – can’t afford to be exposed by Allah’s light.
    Being upon the throne is a metaphor because none sees the throne yet.
    The word of Allah never, and can’t be separated from Himself to become a creation.
    So person of Jesus died.
    Who is supposed to sacrifice himself?
    Son for father.
    Jn 3
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    vs. Father for son.
    2Cor 12
    14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

  60. Ninja says:

    So you believe ALLAH HAS ONLY HAS TWO RIGHT HANDS LITERALLY OR NOT ?

    Allah is ON THE THRONE LITERALLY OR NOT ?

    Because The Asharis says it’s all METAPHOR, ARE U AGREEING WITH THEM OR NOT ?

  61. θ says:

    Racism, exclusivity, discrimination, misogynist pride are typical of earthy arrogance that is not acceptable in Islam.
    Allah through Qur’an allows Moslem men to more than just befriend the Ahl al-Kitabs, that is to marry their women.
    Compare with:
    Lk 14
    26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

    In Q.58, v.22 in context of Badr war, Moslems slew their heathen family in battlefield and took the surrendered families as captives with ransom. Qur’an excludes wives, daughters, and mothers in a group of rejectors of Allah.
    Q.58, v.22 Ye shall find no one who believes in Allah and the Last Day on the friendly terms with those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even if they be their fathers, their sons, their brothers, or their nearest kindred.

    Qur’an in Q.5, v.5, Q.65, v.6 forbids Moslems from trying to hurt, harm, humiliate the Ahl -alKitab women as the sex slaves, let alone as object of unlawful rapeing, but allows Moslem men to take them as wives with dowry.
    Q.5, v.5 And lawful in marriage are chaste women from among the believers and chaste women from among those who were given the Scripture before you, when you have given them their due compensation, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse or taking secret lovers.

    Q.65, v.6 Lodge them of where you dwell out of your means and do not harm them in order to oppress them.

    A specific group that Qur’an forbids Moslems from befriending with is the discriminators or intolerant people from Jews, Christian, unbelievers who exclusively or selectively befriend only each other by excluding, banning, and exempting Moslems.
    Q.5, v.51 O you who have believed, do not take Jews and Christians friends of taking only friends one another. And whoever takes side with them among you then indeed, he is one of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
    Q.3, v.28 Let not believers take the disbelievers friends of excluding the believers. And whoever does that has nothing with Allah, except when taking precaution against them of fearing. And Allah warns you of Himself, and to Allah is the destination.

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