A beautiful demonstration of where sound doctrine, church history, missions and theology all meet together

“The truth of biblical language must be vigorously protected with non-biblical language.” John Piper –

John Piper’s lecture on Athanasius demonstrates why principles and doctrines like “The Trinity”, “Trinitas Unitas”, “Same Substance”, “three persons”, “eternal generation of the Son”, Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, the Deity of Christ, Effectual Grace, the Bondage of the Will, Definite Atonement, etc. are Biblical concepts and teachings, using words and phrases that are not exactly there in the Biblical text.

Sound Doctrine, Church History, Theology, Apologetics and Missions (proper contextualization and balance of the indigenous principle in 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 and the pilgrim principle of Romans 12:1-2) come alive together in the life of Athanasius, by John Piper.

http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/contending-for-our-all

 

 

About Ken Temple

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a sinner who has been saved by the grace of God alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16), in Christ alone (John 14:6). But a true faith does not stay alone, it should result in change, fruit, good works, and deeper levels of repentance and hatred of my own sins of selfishness and pride. I am not better than you! I still make mistakes and sin, but the Lord is working on me, conforming me to His character. (Romans 8:28-29; 2 Corinthians 3:16-18) When I do sin, I hate the sin as it is an affront to God, and seek His forgiveness in repentance. (Mark 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:7-10; Colossians 3:5-16 ) Praise God for His love for sinners (Romans 5:8), shown by the voluntary coming of Christ and His freely laying down His life for us (John 10:18), becoming flesh/human (John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8), dying for sins of people from all nations, tribes, and cultures (Revelation 5:9), on the cross, in history, rising from the dead (Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 28, Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24; John 20-21; 1 Corinthians chapter 15). His resurrection from the dead proved that Jesus is the Messiah, the eternal Son of God, the word of God from eternity past; and that He was all the gospels say He was and that He is truth and the life and the way to salvation. (John 14:6)
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12 Responses to A beautiful demonstration of where sound doctrine, church history, missions and theology all meet together

  1. θ says:

    Let me prove a bit that ironically the best rebuttals of Trinity come from the Bible itself.
    One of the weakness of Trinitarian doctrine is the word “Ho Logos” in John 1:1. Trinitarian greatest enemy is the Bible itself. They invent a weird doctrine that the “Word” is the “same” pre-existent Son in the beginning that became the heaven, the earth, the sun, the grass, the flesh of animals and humans.
    The Bible explains that God says some certain words before creating all visible things from nothing.
    Not only God, even angels and Prophets convey God’s words as in story of Ezekiel’s action of calling 4 winds to resurrect the corpses. Importantly, Jesus was made from the flesh by the word which Gabriel conveys to Mary. Gabriel is not God.
    Lk 1
    31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.

    Now, let us understand the Words of God from the Torah.
    God “needs” to say some words to create the visible light. Does Jesus have a duality with the visible light? No.
    Gen 1
    3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.4 And God saw the light,

    God “needs” to say some words to create the firmament. Does Jesus have a duality with firmament? No.
    Gen 1
    6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.7 And God made the firmament,

    God “needs” to say some words to create the grass. Does Jesus have a duality with the grass? No.
    Gen 1
    11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.12 And the earth brought forth grass,

    God “needs” to say some words to create the firmament. Does Jesus have a duality with firmament? No.
    Gen 1
    15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

    God “needs” to say some words to create the flesh of fishes and birds. Does Jesus have a duality with animals? No.
    Gen 1
    20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth,

    God “needs” to say some words to create the beasts. Does Jesus have a duality with the beasts? No.
    Gen 1
    24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind,

    Finally, God “needs” to say some words to create the 1st humans. Does Jesus have a duality with the 1st humans, male and female? No.
    Gen 1
    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    • Ken Temple says:

      You didn’t read or listen to Piper’s lecture on Athanasius and you are not interacting with the content of the blog post.

      You are not on the subject and I may delete your posts that are not on the subject. There are other posts I have written more related to the Logos and John 1:1.

      God doesn’t “need” to say anything. The logos is the mind and thoughts that express themselves (come out and communicate). God is stooping down and using words so we can grasp what He did in creation, etc. In John 1:1-5 and 1:14, He is telling us the mind / thoughts of God expressing themselves in words always existed with God the Father = the Son always existed with Him in personal relationship – John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-8.

      The angel Gabriel did not speak (by a word/logos) Jesus into the womb of Mary (as what Islam seems to say); rather the angel Gabriel is just announcing what is happening Spiritually behind the scene; behind what physical eyes cannot see. The angel said to Mary: “The power of the Most High will come upon you and the Holy Spirit will overshadow you, for this reason the holy offspring will be called the Son of God.” see Luke 1:34-35

      It is spiritual, nothing physical. God says “be, and it happens”.

  2. θ says:

    John 1:14 is explained by Luke 1:31.
    Trinitarian version of John 1:14 contradicts Luke 1:31.
    Not only God, even angels and Prophets convey God’s words as in story of Ezekiel’s action of calling 4 winds to resurrect the corpses. Importantly, Jesus was made from the flesh by the word which Gabriel conveys to Mary. Gabriel is not God.
    Lk 1
    31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus.
    Jn 1
    14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us,

    Ezekiel’s calling of 4 winds (so not from Jehovah directly).
    Ezek 37
    9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.

    All stories of Genesis, Mary and Gabriel, and Ezekiel are mentioned by Qur’an as well.

  3. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: The angel Gabriel did not speak (by a word/logos) Jesus into the womb of Mary (as what Islam seems to say); rather the angel Gabriel is just announcing what is happening Spiritually behind the scene;”

    There’s no basis for it, even it contradicts the Bible.
    The pattern of the Bible shows and supports our Islamic belief that many wills or thoughts of God have not got generated – not articulated – to be the words. Many wills of God have rather got postponed or canceled (as Jonah and Ninevite). But when the word is spoken, things are made from nothing. Ezekiel 37:9-10, Genesis 1:3-24, and Psalms 33:6-9 showed a same pattern that God says the word – not only thoughts – before it happens.
    Ezekiel is called Dhulkifl in Arabic, as Q.21, v.85.

    Name “Jesus”, his gender, his status as Christ, his relation to John and Spirit, even his miraculous fatherless birth would not have been known to Mary if Gabriel had not spoken or conveyed the “word” into Mary (that eventually persuade her to accept it by will).

    Unless you refute by disproving the pattern of the Bible in Ezekiel 37:9-10, Genesis 1:3-24, and Psalms 33:6-9 on the use of the word rather than thoughts, your argument just turns unbiblical.

    • Ken Temple says:

      the logos is thought/mind that is expressed in words – it includes both the spiritual thoughts and the expression of them in verbal sounds.

      God did speak those things into existence. (Genesis 1, Ezekiel, Psalm 33, etc.)
      Also Hebrews 1:3

      The Word (the Divine nature of the Son that already existed) combined mysteriously in the womb of Mary with a human nature. God the Father commanded it; not Gabriel.

      All three persons of the Trinity are involved.
      Power of the Most High= the Father
      the Holy Spirit will overshadow you = the Holy Spirit
      The Word (John 1:1, 1:14; John 17:5; Philippians 2:5-8) = The Son

  4. θ says:

    You can’t argue using Biblical data to disprove the fact that God’s thoughts are impersonal, even His words are impersonal. Without that, it won’t persuade anyone, let alone to convince.
    Trinitarian’s attempt to invent new genre of such a non-impersonal Word needs a Biblical consistency since the time of the Torah.
    In fact, it is the Torah’s pattern to show us that from Gen 1:3 to Gen 1:25 the Word by which all things were made and were upheld together is impersonal.

    The revelation that the Word “magically” holds everything intact since the beginning of creation has been known by Jews since the time of David and Solomon, but nobody worships him.
    The Spirit that everything has been known by Jews since the time of Moses, but nobody worships him.

    It is a Biblical fact that God’s attribute doesn’t have a personality, it is just attribution of the nature of Jehovah. At most, it is personifying with a figurative speech of the poetic description, as what Solomon detailed on the Wisdom.
    To argue otherwise, you need to answer the questions, where does the Word have personality in the Tanach, and where or when do Jews – especially Moses, David and Solomon – worship “him” ever?

  5. θ says:

    Addendum.
    Isn’t it quite bisarre that the Wisdom – that is personified by Solomon – is getting negated by Trinitarians of having any real personality, but on the other hand the Word – that is never known to be personifying in the Tanach – is rather getting postulated by Trinitarians of having a person since the time of the Tanach, and having the 2nd rank above the Spirit.

  6. Ken Temple says:

    John 17:5 shows the Son existed with the Father in glory before the creation. The relational aspect is there.

    Philippians 2:5-8 also points to the Son eternally existing as God –

    existing in the form (by nature) of God
    did not hold on His equality with God (the Father) as a thing to hold onto;
    but emptied Himself, becoming a man

    The wisdom personified in Proverbs 2 is the same as the Word, who is the Son from all eternity.
    Basic Christian theology. God has always existed with His mind/knowledge/wisdom/thought/words/communicattion and with His Spirit.

  7. Ken Temple says:

    The revelation that the Word “magically” holds everything intact since the beginning of creation has been known by Jews since the time of David and Solomon, but nobody worships him.
    The Spirit that everything has been known by Jews since the time of Moses, but nobody worships him.

    Because the fulness of the reality was not revealed until the incarnation of the Son/Word into flesh and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.

    only then could they look back and see those shadows and nuances and hints.

  8. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: John 17:5 shows the Son existed with the Father in glory before the creation.The relational aspect is there.”

    The point Jews, Arians, and Unitarians always underline as theological emphasis on Preexistence is Preexistence doesn’t mean divinity. Preexistence has nothing to do with divinity. But, unfortunately what can I say, the stubborn Trinitarians never accept it, let alone to understand it, but keep circulating their nonsense over and over. John chapter 17 is the strength of Unitarian theology, and Trinitarians are afraid of debating them there.
    Abraham saw the glory of the Son, Isaiah saw him, Moses wrote about him, but nobody worships him. It proves it is just an impersonal attribute without identity.
    In Rev 11:11 John talks about Preexistence of two upcoming Prophets who still stand at God’s presence, but it doesn’t mean they are divine.

    “Ken Temple says: Philippians 2:5-8 also points to the Son eternally existing as God – existing in the form (by nature) of God did not hold on His equality with God (the Father) as a thing to hold onto; but emptied Himself, becoming a man ”

    Ironically the verse sides with Unitarians instead. Phil 2:6 uses the word “isos” that points out the plural equals. Hence, it would have made the Son’s form another rival of God.
    Once again, why did nobody worship that form before? It proves it is just an impersonal attribute without identity.

    “Ken Temple says: The wisdom personified in Proverbs 2 is the same as the Word, who is the Son from all eternity. Basic Christian theology. God has always existed with His mind/knowledge/wisdom/thought/words/communicattion and with His Spirit.”

    That’s it, very good as expected, exactly, precisely, very well, so predictable. Then, why did nobody worship that eternal Wisdom before? It proves it is just an impersonal attribute without identity.

  9. θ says:

    Ken Temple says: Because the fulness of the reality was not revealed until the incarnation of the Son/Word into flesh and the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.”

    But why have Jews worshiped the Father who doesn’t undergo incarnation?
    Moreover, your argument infers that the incarnation into the flesh perfected or matured a half-full divinity? How can divinity need the flesh?

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