Response to Sam Shamoun on “reconciliation” in Colossians 1:20

Recently Sam Shamoun and Matt Slick had a debate on Limited Atonement. Otherwise known as Particular Redemption or Definite Atonement, in the Reformed / Calvinistic system. You can watch the entire debate if you want on You Tube. (Just google Matt Slick vs. Sam Shamoun, Limited Atonement, etc.) I wanted to highlight James White’s response with the 3rd one first because it explains the passage in Colossians 1:16-20 best in light of Ephesians 2:11-22 and Dr. White pointed out that in Colossians 4:16, “read the letter from the Laodiceans” is probably the letter to the Ephesians, as it was a circular letter to be read, copied, and passed on to other churches. Dr. White provides an excellent response to Sam Shamoun. The other 2 responses are Dr. White’s initial responses. I am grateful for whoever it is that does the “Dividing Line Highlights” and breaks the programs up into smaller sections on each topic. Very helpful

About Ken Temple

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a sinner who has been saved by the grace of God alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16), in Christ alone (John 14:6). But a true faith does not stay alone, it should result in change, fruit, good works, and deeper levels of repentance and hatred of my own sins of selfishness and pride. I am not better than you! I still make mistakes and sin, but the Lord is working on me, conforming me to His character. (Romans 8:28-29; 2 Corinthians 3:16-18) When I do sin, I hate the sin as it is an affront to God, and seek His forgiveness in repentance. (Mark 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:7-10; Colossians 3:5-16 ) Praise God for His love for sinners (Romans 5:8), shown by the voluntary coming of Christ and His freely laying down His life for us (John 10:18), becoming flesh/human (John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8), dying for sins of people from all nations, tribes, and cultures (Revelation 5:9), on the cross, in history, rising from the dead (Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 28, Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24; John 20-21; 1 Corinthians chapter 15). His resurrection from the dead proved that Jesus is the Messiah, the eternal Son of God, the word of God from eternity past; and that He was all the gospels say He was and that He is truth and the life and the way to salvation. (John 14:6)
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28 Responses to Response to Sam Shamoun on “reconciliation” in Colossians 1:20

  1. Ken, I just put out a challenge to your boy to debate me on Limited Atonement. Let’s see how well he does when he faces me. In the meantime, I would love to debate you on this topic if you think White’s arguments are good. We can go live via skype on my youtube channel. Here’s my skyoe: benny_malik3. Feel free to come and defend your man made tradition.

    • Ken Temple says:

      Hey Sam,
      I think he already dealt with your argument in Colossians 1:16-17 and 20. (all three above videos)

      Right now I am teaching most every day and so busy, so much that there is not time for me to do a full blown debate. You have lots of experience, I admit; and I have never done debates before. I prefer to write the response. Lord willing, maybe I will in the future – but I will let James White go first – he is much smarter than me and faster and experienced. I hope he does take you up on that challenge.

      I thought he was right in that you guys did not seem to ground the issue of Definite Atonement in God’s Sovereignty and Unconditional Election first. (and mankind’s bondage in sin)

      Also, the context of verse 18 and 19 puts the church in the middle of the “all things” in verses 16-17 and verse 20.

      There are many passages that the immediate context does not answer all questions, and we have to go to other contexts in order to interpret the Bible in a consistent way.

      There is just no way that “all things” can mean that even Satan and evil demons and unbelievers are reconciled to God in a saving relationship. Origen used these kinds of verses a long time ago for his heresy. Be careful. I think that Matt Slick was right that your position leads to Universalism, although I understood your argumentation and point.

      So, do you believe in Unconditional Election? (Ephesians 1:4-5; 1:11; Romans 9:6-24; 2 Thessalonians 2:13)

      Do you believe that mankind has the inherent ability to choose Christ without the grace of regeneration?

      Do you believe sinners are dead in sin and their wills are locked in always having some sinful motive and taint and therefore unable to choose Christ?

      Do you believe sinners are enslaved to sin? (John 8:34; Ephesians 2:1-3; 2 Timothy 2:24-26; John 8:43, 47)

      I wish you well and peace and pray for you!
      Sincerely,
      Ken Temple

      • Ken, I am already beginning to refute James White and your man-made tradition. Here’s part 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7XxCCrChhA&t=32s

        Watch this as well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WHEDJz3hj0Q

        And I am not the only one decimating your man-made tradition and your idol:

        https://www.youtube.com/c/Soteriology101/search?query=james%20white

        https://www.youtube.com/c/HowToBeChristian/search?query=james%20white

        https://douglasbeaumont.com/?s=james+white

        So stop hiding behind your idol and prove that he refuted anything since I will do to you, White, and your arguments what I did to Slick’s arguments. Stop making excuses and call me on skype.

      • Ken Temple says:

        The fact that I engage you here in writing, is proof that I am not hiding.
        I have already listened to some of those links, by you and the young Roman Catholic guy who talks really fast and uses lots of computer graphics and props to put lots of fluff around his main argument. James White is right – “get to the point”. The guys main point could be made in a few minutes, but the method of the graphics and talking fast (with fast pointer graphic and switching back and forth) is irritating, because it is actually hiding the truth by being slick and fast. He did not really win the argumentation on John 6:44, since the context of 6:37-45 proves him wrong.

        Many others over the last 500 years have material that demonstrates the 5 points of Calvinism true – not just James White, so he is not my idol. R. C. Sproul, John Piper, D. A. Carson, both Hodges, John Murray, Jonathan Edwards, Calvin, Spurgeon, Sam Storms, A. W. Pink, Edwin Palmer, J. MacArthur, B. B. Warfield, John Gertsner, etc.

        The Calvin quotes you gave (of what I heard in that 3 hour video – I cannot watch everything, no time for your daily long 3 hour stuff that is filled with your bombastic personality), just prove against “hyper-Calvinism” (which is indeed a heresy), not Calvinism itself.

        The best overall book that is persuasive to me is Sam Storms, “Chosen for Life”. I hope you have read that carefully, before you come to definite conclusions, because as you are arguing now, you are not just arguing against “Limited Atonement”, but against Unconditional Election and Effectual Grace / Regeneration / Effectual Calling and the Bondage of the will in Total Depravity and your flirting with RC and EO and OO (Rejection of Chalcedon) means apostasy – if you go that route, you will with knowledge fall under Galatians 1:6-9 if you are going to agree with the Council of Trent and its condemnation of the doctrine of justification by faith alone. (but true faith does not stay alone, it results in fruit, change, good works, deeper levels of repentance, spiritual growth, perseverance, etc. ) (ie, it (Sola Fide) does not contradict James 2:14-26)

      • Ken Temple says:

        Also, Leighton Flowers, lost the argument big time in his debate with James White on Romans 9, and also his “choice meats” debacle. Those 2 alone cut to the chase so that one does NOT have to keep up with his 2-3 hours constant “one string banjo” playing all the time.

      • instead of pontificating here call me on skype so we can debate your proof texts for limited atonement to see how well you do defending this man made tradition. Here’s my skype: benny_malik3. It will be live on my channel and recorded for all to see. And contrary to your wishful thinking. Flowers is decimating White and his man made tradition, much like I will when I debate your idol God willing.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Sam,
        In your videos-

        Your method of saying repetitive prayers and holy and good words in between “you sick dog” and “you slime ball”, “you filthy dog”, etc. – you actually think that is consistent and holy and helping you? You are a mixture of holding onto your sinful anger and bitterness and at the same time repeating good words in a very repetitive manner that seems to demonstrate you think that there is inherent power in your words – kind of a form of the Charismatic “name and claim it” mentality. I feel sorry for you, for I do see that you want to be free from your deep anger and bitterness, but you are unwilling to see the contradictions of that with your actual behavior towards people.

        You need to stop apologetics and get help and have a Biblical church where you are accountable to a godly group of elders. An evangelist / missionary should have the same character and local church accountability as pastor-teachers (elders). (Ephesians 4:11-12; Titus 1:5-9; Acts 20:17, 28; 1 Peter 5:1-4; 1 Timothy 3, Philippians 1:1)

        You need help from the power of Ephesians 4:31-32.

        https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/forgive-just-as-god-in-christ-also-has-forgiven-you

        Dealing with bitterness, anger, wrath, slander, clamor, in Ephesians 4:31-32, Piper points back to forgiving others in Matthew 6:
        https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/as-we-forgive-our-debtors

      • Ken stop wasting my time with your long winded rants since I am basically ignoring your smoke and mirrors. James White has taught you well since he is another coward who hides behind his DL show. My skype is open and I am ready to decimate your wicked man made tradition: benny_malik3. I will do to you what I will do to your idol if he becomes man enough to debate me. He is a clown much like you. Call me so all can hear your decimation.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Sam,
        Actually, it is you are hiding behind your You Tube audience and lack of local Biblical church accountability and failure to deal with your deep anger, bitterness, and pugnaciousness (always looking for a fight or argument).

        An elder, pastor, evangelist, and / or missionary must have this characteristic, which you lack:

        1 Timothy 3:3 – “not pugnacious” (NASB), “not quarrelsome” (ESV, NIV), “not a brawler” (KJV) – that is what you are deep down – always looking for a fight – it comes out in your other stuff – your love of the fights, Bruce Lee, Hulk Hogan – and your relationships.

        Your “limbo land” of not being committed to any kind of Biblical church and put yourself under accountability is the problem. You want to affirm the Bible and the Trinity (that is good), but you are unwilling to deal with your deep pugnacious spirit and unforgiveness, bitterness, anger, wrath, clamor, and abusive speech from your mouth. (Ephesians 4:31-32)

        All your incantations of repeating holy words don’t mean a thing without a real heart attitude. You are just repeating mantras of prayers & words, but don’t have the heart attitude behind the words.

        Mark 11:25
        Ephesians 4:31-32
        Matthew 6:10-15

        The limbo land is your just hovering between RC, EO, OO, Assyrian Church of the East, non-Reformed Protestantism – but no commitment to any local church authority – you are a one man show on your You Tube channel with no accountability.

        You violate the principles of being in the ministry. You are disqualified.
        I Timothy 3
        Titus 1
        I Peter 5:1-4
        etc.

      • Ken Temple says:

        “long winded rants”
        Hilarious coming from someone who does 3 hour daily rants! Talk about “long winded rants” !!

        Interspersed with “you vile slime dog”, then, “Holy Father, help me to overcome my anger”, etc.

        You need counseling and accountability.

      • I am live in 15 minutes. Instead of being brave in your comments section why not pretend to be man enough to defend your false satanic tradition and call me on skype now so we can see how well you do exegeting passages: benny_malik3. I will be waiting. Hoepfully you are better than a Muslim and will actually call me instead of hiding here in your comments section. And hopefully your fake idol willa accept my challenge to debate since I will bury his lies and distortions by God’s grace and send him to early retirement.

      • Ken Temple says:

        It is you who hide in your You Tube channel and control and manipulate and don’t have a local Biblical church with elders to help you deal with your sinful anger and pugnaciousness / quarrelsome spirit and revengeful spirit that exudes from you constantly. Those prayers of repetitive incantations and mantras mean nothing without deep heart repentance. You cannot take criticism and you never have. Every criticism that many have made to you – you turn it around and go full blast revenge / bullying tactics / bombast / flame-throwing type talk and name calling, etc. and claiming you are a prophet and you can call people names is wrong. You are not a prophet or apostle and that is the wrong way to deal with people. You don’t know the truth of the gospel in your heart that affects your behavior when you are hurt – you have been deeply hurt ( I get that) – you need to learn to respond with Ephesians 4:31-32; Matthew 6:10-14 (forgiveness of your enemies and those that have hurt you). Instead you think it is more manly and macho to do your “fight back” thing – you want to be a hero like Bruce Lee or Hulk Hogan – but it is fantasy. give it up and find a good Biblical church. Stop trying to just win arguments all the time. Surrender to the Lord. Winning arguments for the sake of winning arguments is not the purpose of an Evangelist or missionary.

      • Ken Temple says:

        The young Roman Catholic guy (How to be a Christian) did not demonstrate from John 6:37-45 that the Reformed view is wrong. All he did was a slick and fast thing full of graphics and fast talking that avoided the context. The context starting in verse 37 demonstrates he is wrong.

      • stop ranting like a madman AND CALL ME ON SKYPE so I can put you and your human god in place: benny_malik3. We are waiting to go live to see if you really have the temerity to defend your wicked human tradition. I will be waiting to receive a call from you on skype. Don’t disappoint.

      • Ken Temple says:

        You are not dealing with your issues.

      • more to come for you and your idol: https://answeringislamblog.wordpress.com/2020/11/03/hebrews-216-and-limited-atonement/. Watch what I am going to do to his arguments in my live stream this week, God willing. Both of you fakes are going to need to find a new line of work.

      • Ken Temple says:

        you still never answer the questions about having a local Biblical church and accountability to a godly group of elders to help you deal with your anger and sinful behavior or pugnaciousness (always looking for a fight or quarrel) – your head knowledge and ability to argue and put people down and talk over others means nothing. “let not many of you become teachers” – James 3:1 – your mouth and behavior has already discredited you. no one of your You Tube fans stand up to you and if they do, you just cut them off and declare victory. I feel sorry for you – because I see that you are struggling – the beginning of your programs are so filled with your struggle and repetitive prayers of good words shows your inner turmoil.

      • call me on skype so I can decimate you and your questions for all to hear: benny_malik3. So no more excuses for your cowardice. We are waiting for your funeral and burial!

      • Ken Temple says:

        winning arguments is not the point of ministry. 2 Timothy 2:24-26 It is you who are a coward because you don’t put yourself under a Biblical local church. Staying the way you are between all denominations in a “limbo” is an act of disobedience. You are not qualified to be in ministry. James 3:1 – 4:6; 1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, etc.

      • Ken Temple says:

        24 The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, skillful in teaching, patient when wronged, 25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
        2 Timothy 2:24-26

        A minister / elder / overseer / pastor/ missionary / evangelist / Bible teacher / apologist

        must be:
        “not pugnacious”, “not quarrelsome”
        1 Timothy 3:3

      • Ken Temple says:

        “not a brawler” – JKV

        You are a brawler, therefore disqualified

      • Ken Temple says:

        Not a striker
        Always wanting to fight, brawl, strike

        https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/3-3.htm

      • Flowers is decimating White on his channel and has called out to your idol to debate him and discuss. I will also decimate your idol when we debate on limited atonement. My skype is open now. Call me and stop delaying.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Except Flowers already went down in flames with their debate on Romans 9 and then Flowers “choice meats” program.

  2. Ken Temple says:

    As far as it being a man-made tradition – it is an issue that has been debated for the last 500 years among Christians, especially Protestants.

    When you put all the verses together with the other important issues of God’s Sovereignty and election and predestination and the verses that speak of Christ giving Himself for the Church (believers), it makes sense.

    I have this big book on the issue, but I have not read it yet. Skipped around some. If you have not read it yet, I recommend it.

    “From Heaven He Came and Sought Her”

  3. Ken Temple says:

    Sam,
    In one of your articles at your blog arguing for a RC view of baptism, (early church fathers on John 3:5)

    What are “The Recognitions of Clement of Rome” ?

    Is that 1 Clement or 2 Clement ?

    or is that under the false “Clementine literature” – forgeries centuries later that claims to be from Clement of Rome?

    Most scholars, even Roman Catholics don’t use that material to make arguments from history.

    Nobody uses those as part of the argument. The earliest is Justin Martyr’s use.

  4. Ken Temple says:

    Sam,
    Your method of saying repetitive prayers and holy and good words in between “you sick dog” and “you slime ball”, “you filthy dog”, etc. – you actually think that is consistent and holy and helping you? You are a mixture of holding onto your sinful anger and bitterness and at the same time repeating good words in a very repetitive manner that seems to demonstrate you think that there is inherent power in your words – kind of a form of the Charismatic “name and claim it” mentality. I feel sorry for you, for I do see that you want to be free from your deep anger and bitterness, but you are unwilling to see the contradictions of that with your actual behavior towards people.

    You need to stop apologetics and get help and have a Biblical church where you are accountable to a godly group of elders. An evangelist / missionary should have the same character and local church accountability as pastor-teachers (elders). (Ephesians 4:11-12; Titus 1:5-9; Acts 20:17, 28; 1 Peter 5:1-4; 1 Timothy 3, Philippians 1:1)

    You need help from the power of Ephesians 4:31-32.

    https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/forgive-just-as-god-in-christ-also-has-forgiven-you

    Dealing with bitterness, anger, wrath, slander, clamor, in Ephesians 4:31-32, Piper points back to forgiving others in Matthew 6:
    https://www.desiringgod.org/messages/as-we-forgive-our-debtors

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