Is He Worthy?

Addendum, Nov. 21, 2020

Andrew Peterson’s line: “Do you feel the world is broken?” is an allusion to Genesis chapter 3 and Romans 8:19-23 which speaks about the corruption, groaning, suffering, pains, slavery, futility and anxious longing of all creation, because it was judged / cursed after sin entered the world. (Genesis chapter 3) Death and judgement (the curse of God) came upon the world because of sin.

Revelation 21:1-4 and 22:3 shows that after the resurrection of the flesh and judgement day – Revelation 20:10-15, only then will there be no more death, pain, crying, mourning, and curse.

Revelation chapter 5

I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a scroll written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the scroll and to break its seals?” And no one in heaven or on the earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or to look into it. Then I began to weep greatly because no one was found worthy to open the scroll or to look into it. And one of the elders *said to me, “Stop weeping; behold, the Lion that is from the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has overcome so as to be able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth. And He came and took the scroll out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne. When He had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each one holding a harp and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints. 

And they *sang a new song, saying,

“Worthy are You to take the scroll and to break its seals; for You were slaughtered, and You purchased people for God with Your blood from every tribe, language, people, and nation.

10 You have made them into a kingdom and priests to our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”

11 Then I looked, and I heard the voices of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands, 12 saying with a loud voice,

“Worthy is the Lamb that was slaughtered to receive power, wealth, wisdom, might, honor, glory, and blessing.”

13 And I heard every created thing which is in heaven, or on the earth, or under the earth, or on the sea, and all the things in them, saying,

“To Him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing, the honor, the glory, and the dominion forever and ever.”

14 And the four living creatures were saying, “Amen.” And the elders fell down and worshiped.

Revelation 5:1-14 with my emphasis

The same worship given to the Father (The one who sits on the Throne), see also chapter 4 – the same worship is given to the Lamb / Lion, who is obviously Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God.

About Ken Temple

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a sinner who has been saved by the grace of God alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16), in Christ alone (John 14:6). But a true faith does not stay alone, it should result in change, fruit, good works, and deeper levels of repentance and hatred of my own sins of selfishness and pride. I am not better than you! I still make mistakes and sin, but the Lord is working on me, conforming me to His character. (Romans 8:28-29; 2 Corinthians 3:16-18) When I do sin, I hate the sin as it is an affront to God, and seek His forgiveness in repentance. (Mark 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:7-10; Colossians 3:5-16 ) Praise God for His love for sinners (Romans 5:8), shown by the voluntary coming of Christ and His freely laying down His life for us (John 10:18), becoming flesh/human (John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8), dying for sins of people from all nations, tribes, and cultures (Revelation 5:9), on the cross, in history, rising from the dead (Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 28, Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24; John 20-21; 1 Corinthians chapter 15). His resurrection from the dead proved that Jesus is the Messiah, the eternal Son of God, the word of God from eternity past; and that He was all the gospels say He was and that He is truth and the life and the way to salvation. (John 14:6)
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62 Responses to Is He Worthy?

  1. Vaqas Rehman says:

    @Ken Temple

    Ken do you still believe that when the divine person of the son took for himself a human nature he veiled some of his divine attributes for reasons unknown to us? Because if so then the answer of the question “is he worthy?” (presuming worthy of worship) My answer would have to be no.

    • Ken Temple says:

      Yes, Jesus Al Masih, the eternal Son / eternal Word, who became a man in time by the virgin conception and birth, is Worthy because He is the Lion of Judah (King, Lord, God in the flesh) and the Lamb who was slain for our sins (atonement, love for sinners). He is worthy.
      John 1:1-5; 1:14
      Philippians 2:5-8
      John 17:5
      Psalm 110:1
      Psalm 2
      Mark 14:60-64
      Revelation 5:1-14

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        If you mean worthy of our worship and therefore God I simply have to disagree. I’d like to ask again, do you still believe that when the divine person of the son took for himself a human nature he veiled some of his divine attributes for reasons unknown to us? Because if so how can he be God with some of his divinity veiled? Like when he didn’t know the hour for example. Do you really expect me to believe in a God that wasn’t all knowing even if temporarily? I say these things not to agitate you Ken but because I’m trying to wrap my brain around you’re theology.

        If I’ve overstepped my bounds in this dialogue then I humbly apologize. If I didn’t then please let me know if I do.

      • Ken Temple says:

        I already answered this. This is basic Christianity – that there is One Creator God who existed in three spiritual persons into eternity past, but have One Nature / substance / essence; then at a point in time in history, the second person of the Trinity became a man by the incarnation. The eternal Son became a man. John 1:1-5; 1:14. He was in eternity past with the Father. John 17:5. He became flesh / man. Philippians 2:5-8; He was born of the virgin Mary. Luke 1:26-35; chapter 2; Matthew 1:18-25. Read the verses and chapters; real slowly, read from Matthew 1 to Revelation 22, a chapter a day; ask God to reveal Himself to you; Open your heart and mind.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        My heart and mind are open Ken. If they weren’t I wouldn’t be have these discussions with you trying to understand the nooks and crannies of your beliefs.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Ok. But you should also just read slowly the entire New Testament slowly, verse by verse, chapter by chapter, without jumping to Islamic defense type articles, etc.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Read those verses I gave you above.

        Jesus’ not knowing the time of His second coming was temporary, because He was speaking from the limitations of the human nature while on earth. He rose from the dead and ascended to heaven. He knows now.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        “He was speaking from the limitations of the human nature while on earth.”

        This. This is exactly my problem with the incarnation. If God, even for a moment does posses all of his divine attributes then he becomes less than God and not God. That is not a God I can worship. Let me ask you something else Ken, what is the difference between what you modern Christians believe In this respect and kenoticism?

      • Ken Temple says:

        The Trinity answers that. The Father did not become flesh / human. The Holy Spirit did not become flesh / human. Only the eternal Son became a man for a time. What is “kenoticism” ?
        I recognize that this word you are using is from Philippians 2 – Greek word Kenosis / κενοσις – “He emptied Himself” by taking on a human nature.

        Here is a good article on Philippians 2:5-11

        http://jesusiscreator.org/?p=298

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        But that’s exactly my point. I’m not discussing the fathers divinity or the spirits divinity at this time, only the son’s divinity and whether he is truly worthy of worship. To rebound to the other members of the trinity when discussing the son’s supposed godhood is, in my mind, a weak answer.

        As for kenoticism see this article.

        https://www.gotquestions.org/kenoticism-kenotic-theology.html

      • Ken Temple says:

        God the Son humbled Himself and became a man – for our salvation. Hebrews 2:14-18 – why is this difficult?

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        Because God must not lose any of the attributes of God even for a moment else he stops being God. That’s not my just standard its the bible standards too.

      • Ken Temple says:

        He did not “loose them”; rather He added a human nature for a season on earth.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        You JW and others all say that the son “set aside” and “veiled” some of his divine attributes at least for a time. I interpret that as the son becoming less God due to the human nature than without.

      • Ken Temple says:

        I cannot convince by human persuasion. The Spirit of God has to do His work in your heart, invisibly – 2 Timothy 2:24-26; 2 Corinthians 4:6; Acts 16:14; Matthew 16:18; John 6:37-44, 65.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        Do you disagree that the son became less God when taking on a human nature for himself and “setting aside” and “veiling” some of his divine attributes? If so why?

      • Ken Temple says:

        no, He lost nothing; He just gave us His rights to use them, humbling Himself on earth for a time and being dependent on the Father and the Holy Spirit so as to model humility and dependence on God the Father for us. (all those verses – John 5:19 – “I can do nothing by Myself . . . ” etc. ) Jesus is modeling trust and dependence on God the Father for us.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        And you don’t see the “rights to them” as a part and parcel of being God? Let me ask you another question If all members of the trinity incarnated and humbled themselves would they collectively cease being God then?

      • Ken Temple says:

        I guess, that is why The Father and the Spirit never became human and never will.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        wait so do you agree that if they ALL did they would cease being God? Is that right?

      • Ken Temple says:

        I guess so. Mind you; that is a question I have never thought about, so I guess that would be true. The Father did not become a human; neither did the Spirit. The Creeds reflect Biblical revelation – “I believe in God the Father Almighty, creator of heaven and earth . . . etc. and the Son . . . and the Holy Spirit . . . etc.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        Can you articulate WHY they would cease to be God?

      • Ken Temple says:

        Obviously because if ALL of the Trinity became a human, there is no God the Father in during during Jesus’ the Son’s ministry to uphold the Father-Son – the Spirit relationship of the True God.

        Theoretically, I suppose God could do that and remain God; but practically and by revelation, He did not do that, so the point and question is a moot question . . . Why waste time thinking about it when it is obvious that God never did it that way (all three persons becoming human) and the Bible is clear that only one person of the Trinity became a human for a short time.

        Since revelation tells us what God did, and He did not do what you are speculating about, and never will – we have read the last chapter of history – Revelation chapters 20-22 – there is no point in wasting time with that question.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        So is the loss of the relationship aspect the only thing that cause them to cease being God in that scenario? I promise this is important to our discussion.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Muslims ask all the time, if Jesus is God, who was upholding the world when He was on the earth? The Father, and the Holy Spirit.

        Creation and providence (upholding all things, controlling all things; the invisible principle behind all matter – The Sovereign and Holy Creator. ) But the Son is also creator and upholder – John 1:1-5; Colossians 1:15-17; Hebrews 1:3, so the question is moot.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        So the loss of the relationship aspect is not the only thing that cause them to cease being God in that scenario? Again I promise this is important to our discussion.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Already answered that.

        Again:
        Muslims ask all the time, if Jesus is God, who was upholding the world when He was on the earth? The Father, and the Holy Spirit.

        The other two persons of the Trinity were upholding all creation, while Jesus was on the earth, but also now that Jesus is glorified and at the right hand of the Father, He also shares in that upholding of all things –

        Creation and providence (upholding all things, controlling all things; the invisible principle behind all matter – The Sovereign and Holy Creator. ) But the Son is also creator and upholder – John 1:1-5; Colossians 1:15-17; Hebrews 1:3, so the question is moot.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        Okay now lets work through this Ken. If all the persons of the trinity incarnating means they all have to not uphold the universe while earth then that means the they are not God. In this instance only the son incarnated which means he didn’t uphold the universe among other divine properties which means the son is not God and not worthy of worship. Thats my thoughts on the matter. Ask yourself why is it okay for the son to surrender some divine attributes and yet still be worthy of worship? I’m talking about the son here not the father or the holy spirit so saying they “upheld” things in his place doesn’t answer the question.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Of course I knew that is where you were going with your argumentation, but it does not work according to the Divine Revelation – The Scriptures, sound theology, the Doctrine of the Trinity, etc. Revelation 5:1-14 is a revelation of heaven and the Lamb who was slain for sin and purchased people from all cultures and languages / the Lion of Judah (Jesus the eternal Son; eternal Word – John 1:1; 17:5) is proclaimed as worthy of worship. It is holy Scripture, inspired, inerrant, infallible; and also all the other verses I already demonstrated.

        Yes, it does answer the question.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        But if all three persons incarnating means they are not considered divine due to not upholding the universe while on earth and the son did that very thing how can you say the son is still divine? That’s what i’m not understanding. It seems inconsistent. Not to mention the whole “oh well the father and the holy spirit were still doing it and therefore God” argument also perplexes me as again we are talking about only the sons divinity not the others.

      • Ken Temple says:

        I already answered you, but you refuse to understand the Scriptures. (you don’t seem to read the verses – the verses trump your argumentation and reasoning.)

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        I understand you claim the thing we are discussing is prophesied and proven through the scriptures. However whether or not it is in the scriptures is a separate discussion to me to if it makes sense or not.

      • Ken Temple says:

        You cannot separate the issue, since the Bible is revelation from God; and more than that, the Qur’an also affirms it unknowingly as holy Scripture. (Surah 5:47; 5:68; 10:94; 3:3; 2:136)

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        I don’t understand why you keep bringing Islam into this discussion. I’m not coming into this dialogue as a Muslim with my Islamic bias’s. I’m coming at it as someone who is trying to find the truth of the matter and quite frankly you’re theology as we have been discussing it still doesn’t ring true to me. Every fiber of my being and mind is screaming at me that it doesn’t make sense and is self contradictory.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Yes, I think you do; you just don’t realize how much your own Islamic religion colors your reasoning.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        I find that laughably hard to believe and perhaps even a little ironic but oh well. It seems this discussion has hit a brick wall of sorts. Which is unfortunate cause again I felt we were so close to something. But since we’re on the topic of the hypostatic union I’d to ask you something if you have the time.

        Did the human nature of the hypostatic union consist of human body, mind, and even soul? Or did the spirit of the second person of the trinity the son replace any necessary functions that would need the human soul? The reason I ask is in my conversations with other Christians on this subject I’ve gotten two different answers.
        Some say he had a human soul some say he didn’t. Which is true orthodoxy?

      • Ken Temple says:

        Orthodoxy is that Jesus had a human body and soul and mind also, along with a Divine nature and mind. This is what the 2nd Ecumenical Council (381 AD) was about, against the heresy that arose at that time called Apollinarianism.

        (381 AD, in Constantinople, in the church of Hagia Irene “Holy Peace” – today it is behind the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul, a much smaller church. The Ottomans used it as a storage depot for centuries, never converted it into a mosque, does not have minarets)

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        Thank you for the answer Ken.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        In any case I’m sorry if I’m frustrating you Ken. Please know that I’m having this discussion with you in good faith.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Yes; I appreciate your good manners.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        I meant it Ken. I’m not trying to disprove your theology only understand it. It’s not my fault that none of the pieces of the puzzle seem to fit.

      • Ken Temple says:

        I have to get back to work, so please stop for now. I cannot spend all day debating and repeating speculative questions that don’t mean anything, since the Father did not become human and will not (as seen in the view of history that the Bible gives – until Judgement Day and the end of history – that speculative question is a waste of time.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        okay Ken have a good day. And for the record there was point to it. A point I will see to another time i suppose.

      • Ken Temple says:

        I already answered the question and issue.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        A shame too cause I felt we were so close!

      • Ken Temple says:

        Already answered.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Even so, there are also verses that speak of the Son upholding all things together – Hebrews 1:3; Colossians 1:15-17, etc. The Son is the cosmic “glue” that holds all molecules together.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Ok, I had NOT heard of making a “ism” word out of kenosis, but I see that now ( I actually now remember reading this a while back) – that article answers the question, and James White article also answers it. Kenosis does not mean in context to empty Himself of being God, rather it means that by adding a human nature to Himself, His divine nature was veiled partly for a time. He did not regard equality with God something to be grasped or held onto at all costs – He humbled Himself and allowed Himself to be spat upon, humiliated, cursed, tortured killed, without fighting back and without a spirit of revenge or self-defense. That is the greatest power – that kind of surrender and forgiveness and condescension and grace. The god of Islam knows nothing of that – Islam as a religion is a religion of war and revenge and fighting back and conquering – and is demonstrated by what happened in history.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        I honestly don’t see a difference between kenoticism and God’s attributes being “veiled”.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Ok. Keep on reading and studying and thinking about it, and praying for guidance.

      • Ken Temple says:

        The True God, who existed from all eternity past, is a Trinity of Relationships – God is relational. God is our Creator. He created man and woman and children – family. Relationships. We are relational beings because God is relational. In Islam, Muhammad got a wrong understanding of what the Christians meant. (Surah 5:72-78; 5:116; 6:101; 19:88-92; 112) – He thought they were saying God had sex with Mary and that Mary was part of the Trinity. That is why the Qur’an speaks that way of “no way! That is monstrous / terrible / awful thing!”, etc.

        The Trinity answers our questions as to who God is. God is love. God exists from all eternity past as the One Creator God (one substance, nature, essence) in three persons – three relational persons in one being or nature/ essence. God is love. 1 John 4:8; John 3:16 – this means He is lover (Father), the Beloved (the Son) and the spirit of love between them (the Holy Spirit) – but is not a physical thing – it is pure and holy from eternity past and His nature caused the creation of the physical universe and man and woman and children and family. Love and decision and commitment and emotion and affection and sacrifice for others come from God’s love. God is unselfish and sacrificial.

        Allah is just a lonely monad, a lonely Al Jabbar. (used also about unjust dictators)

        In Islam, Allah is a lonely Sovereign Dictator / Master – Al Jabbar (the one who forces and enforces) , the proud one – Al Motakabbir المتکبر (Qur’an 59:23), the one who is the best deceiver – خیر المکارین

        Qur’an 3:54; 8:30; 10:22; 7:99

        The God of the Bible cannot deceive or lie or sin – He cannot do anything that contradicts His nature. Titus 1:2; 1 John 1:5; Isaiah 6; James 1:13-14; Hebrews 6:18

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        You’re deflection to Islam is not completely unexpected and yet still disappointing. I’ll say it again, a God that does not posses all the attributes of God even if for a moment ceases to be God and is not worthy of worship. Hence the son is not worthy of worship.

      • Ken Temple says:

        God is sovereign and Almighty in Christianity also; but Islam does not have Love or the Incarnation or the Atonement or the Resurrection that balances out the Determinism (الجبر ) Al-Jabr –

        The Revelation of the Incarnation, the Trinity, the Atonement, the Love of God in Christ, the powerful Resurrection, gave us a complete Revelation of Who our Creator actually is.
        https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2013/09/23/the-result-of-a-man-made-religion-with-no-love-no-atonement-no-concept-of-the-fatherhood-of-god/

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        Again Ken we’re not talking about Islam here so your deflections mean nothing and are not worthy of answering. (though I’m sure they have been multiple times)

      • Ken Temple says:

        Do you see that Muhammad got a wrong impression of Christianity and the Trinity? (Surah 5:116) – Probably from the over-exalting of Mary, icons, statues, and prayers to Mary made him think the Trinity was the Father, the Son, and the Mother. Along with Surah 112; 6:101; 19:88-92; 5:72-78, it is easy to see how he got that impression; especially since the Bible was not translated into Arabic until the 800s – 900s AD – and N. Arabia and Yemen and S. Iraqi areas was filled with heretics and nominal “Christians”, etc.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        Not our topic Ken.

      • Ken Temple says:

        But you must deal with it first. It is an obvious problem with Islam, as it comes 600 later and completely misunderstands the previous revelations, and yet at the same time, honors those revelations and books. (Surah 5:47; 5:68; 10:94; 3:3; 2:136)

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        I don’t HAVE to do anything Ken. It’s not our current topic and I see no reason to address it at this time. Now if you want to discuss it later then I’ll answer you then.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Ok; true; no one is forcing you to deal with it. Ok; You can do as you like. I think we have covered everything for now without just repeating what I am saying.

        You are a much better person that those other guys (you know who I am talking about). I enjoy interacting with you because you are more fair and reasonable and this is the point of evangelism and debate – allowing for both sides to express themselves without violence or name calling, etc. (like Faiz and Stewjo and mr. heathcliff, etc.

        As the Qur’an says, my own interpretation – we created you in different nations so that you may (reach out) and get to know one another. That is a good principle. Unfortunately, Muhammad did not live by that – he just made war and laws of apostasy and lack of freedom to ask questions, etc. and taught his successors (khalifs) to do the same thing.

      • Vaqas Rehman says:

        @Ken Temple

        To be clear I simply want to continue with the current topic at hand until I feel it has been exhausted without any distractions. If and when you feel my questions are not bringing anything new to the table in regards to that very discussion then I will be more than happy to discuss any new topic in my limited ability.

      • Ken Temple says:

        ok; I think we covered a lot for now. I wish you peace. Have a good day.

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