Anthony Rogers decimates Sam Shamoun & William Albrecht, Again!

Anthony Rogers preaches the gospel here from Romans and Galatians. Shows how the churches in Galatia had forsaken the gospel, they even turned away from Christ Himself.

Anthony provides an interesting insight in that the letter to the Galatians says, “to the churches” (v, 2) and yet all other epistles say “the church of God” or “those who are faithful” or “to the saints” at various places.

“I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel . . . ” Galatians 1:6

Adding works to justification is deserting Jesus Himself, for a different gospel.

It is possible for local churches, in history, even apostolic churches, to leave the faith. Galatians 1:6

The church at Ephesus also had “left their first love” (Rev. 2:4) and God eventually took their lamp stands away by allowing Islam to invade and conquer. (Rev. 2:5)

The Churches in North Africa left the faith after Augustine died (430 AD) and the Vandals came and brought Arianism into the area – later 400s to 600s. Then Islam came and wiped out the churches, but they had already left the faith. The Coptic Church survived in Egypt because they held onto the Deity of Christ and the Trinity. I met an interesting group of Coptic Evangelicals when I was in Egypt in 1986. Great group of people!

“another generation was raised up that did not know the Lord” (see Judges 2:10)

How does this relate to Jesus’ promise in Matthew 16:18? “I will build My church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.”

The promise is for all true believers, the Universal church of Christ – believers from all nations (Rev. 5:9; 7:9) and in all generations (Ephesians 3:21). The “gates of Hades” means “death” – it does not mean that a church cannot become apostate by false teaching, liberalism, etc. True believers have eternal life, peace with God, the promise of heaven. several times in the book of Revelation, it says, “the one who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death” (Rev. 2:11; see also Rev. 20:6; 20:14; 21:18) and “everyone whose name was not found in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death. (see Revelation 20:10-15)

But all churches in the west who are liberal, apostate, those that deny the Virginal conception of Christ in the womb of Mary, who deny the Deity of Christ, or the resurrection of Christ from the dead, or if they think homosexuality is ok and affirm that sin and/ or so called “same sex marriage” – all of these have left the faith. They may have church buildings, but they don’t have the faith. As Athanasius said to the believers who were kicked out of their church buildings because of the Arian heresy: “they have the buildings, but you have the faith”. (Festal letter fragment 29)

The buildings in Rome, full of pomp and gold, and all around the world, full of priests who teach false doctrines and man-made traditions, full of statues of Mary (idols), full of bread in a little tabernacle that they think is the flesh of Jesus, full of priests with special clothes and rituals and so called ex opere operato powers, etc. are empty shells of false churches. They have buildings, but not the faith. The Roman Catholic Church became a false church at the Council of Trent, 1545-1563, because of all the anathemas, especially the one against the doctrine of justification by faith alone.

Sam Shamoun prays lots of mantras now, formulas, repetitive ritualistic prayers, making the sign of the cross (nothing wrong with that per se; but using it as a mechanical ritual is a problem), asking God to help him overcome his pride and anger, yet 2 seconds later curses people out that disagree with him. He calls people names all the time; he talks dirty. He curses Muslims, and Jews, and anyone who disagrees with him, who are created in the image of God. Sam, you are not a prophet nor an apostle!

“with our tongue, we bless God our creator, but curse mankind, who is created in the image of God” – James 3:9-10

With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. James 3:9-10

Sam:

“Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.” James 3:1-2

Repent!

You need to repent and come back to the true gospel and repent of your wrong behavior towards Muslims, Jews, and people who disagree with you.

at the 2:00 hour mark, Anthony makes a great point that the faith + works righteousness religions (especially Roman Catholicism) often criticize us who believe in justification by faith alone (but true faith does not stay alone); and yet Sam Shamoun (and his followers, by their silence or fear of confronting him in his obvious sinful anger and ugly behavior) is committing the most un-sanctified and wicked behavior toward others by his mouth and cursing and sinful anger and yet those ritual churches are the ones who complain that they think we don’t believe in good works also and sanctification and right behavior! Touche Anthony Rogers!

By being quiet and by being afraid to confront Sam, you others who support him and involved in the same sins!

Sam likes to call people cowards and sissies and effeminate, etc. and uses bullying tactics. But when I called into his show he blocked me after I told him that I pray for him. And I do and still do. I do pray for you, Sam!

Sam, it is you who are the coward and sissy because you hung on me and would not face me!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jaHr4o1ShY&t=2982s


Your video, “Open Skype, Tovia Singer, Paul Williams, & Ken Temple
starts around the 42 minute mark
After having some technical sound difficulties . . . 
You asked:Sam: “So, Ken, Can you explain to us why you are such a Rabid Dog?  (about 42:45)
A stupid question; no substance
“Your mics not working Ken, don’t be scared.”
Me:  “I am not scared.”
Sam:  “because you are such an arrogant dog you think I took the video down because down inside I know that you are right”
“how stupid do you feel that you are an arrogant twit that you think you are Christlike?”
another stupid question of no substance
I laughed
“you gunna keep laughing and waste my time?”
Me: “yeah, anyway I just wanted to face you and say that I  do pray for you . . . “
then you cut me off
I came on to your show, and faced you; so it is you who is the sissy and baby and you are the coward because you did not even give me a chance to talk or spend much time on the issue.
My point is that you took down the Tovia Singer video because you were cursing him and name calling him, and that is wrong.  It does not matter that Jai did not do it right.  You were caught sinning against an unbeliever. You even said that you took it down because you have the clean up the mess that Jai left.

But if you are a prophet or an apostle, and you claim it is ok to curse people the way you do, why did you take it down?

Also, you doubled down on that principle recently, cursing and getting angry and gave Vocab Malone more and more clips to use. If you were not afraid to put that out, then why did you take the Tovia Singer clip down?

Because deep down, you know I am right about this. The NT says “do not return evil for evil”.


You don’t know how to interact with people.  

Sam – You did not even give me a chance to answer.  You don’t know how to socially relate to people normally.  All you do is use bullying tactics.  Your 2 little questions had no substance (I went back and listened again), and both full of insults and arrogance and sinful anger and bravado and pugnaciousness (which disqualifies you from ministry – 1 Timothy 3:2-4) (you violate many of the qualifications, “above reproach”, etc. along with “respectable” and self-controlled”, etc. KJV – “not a striker)-  brother Sam, meditate on the passages about qualifications for ministry. Meditate on James 3:1-18 and 4:1-10 – “with your tongue you bless God” (in your ritualistic and repetitive prayers on your show), then one second later, “and with you also curse men” people (mankind, humans) who are made in the likeness of God”  (James 3:9-10)  Also, you were too busy reading Jack Chick tracts and being discipled in shallow Evangelical churches (no telling how many you bounced around from because of your bullying and anger and inability to relate to people in a proper way.  You even turn on your own mods and friends in your channel constantly.  You already got rid of many; those that are left are afraid of you; or they are from the ritualistic churches hoping that you are going to join them soon.  They are not “apostolic” although they claim to be, because they have added things that are man-made traditions and practices and ritualistic dead religion.  (statues, icons, trafficking in relics, emphasis on rituals and ceremonies, unBiblical doctrines and dogmas, etc.) 
You hung up on me because deep down, you know I was right by the way you cursed an unbeliever (Tovia Singer), calling him names, and the proof was there for all to see but you took it down. You sissy baby; you coward; why didn’t you leave it up if you are so tough and manly, huh? Why didn’t you leave it up if you are a prophet or acting in an apostolic way with unbelievers?  If it was godly character like the prophets or the apostle Paul or like Jesus calling the Pharisees snakes, etc. why were you afraid to leave it up?  huh?  It was up for all to see and hear your behavior.  It does not matter that Jai cut the quote too soon; you sinned and no wonder no wants to debate you anymore.  (for a long time) The Muslims and Jews like Tovia Singer can easily say that your anger and sin and bullying and bravado and pugnaciousness disqualify you from debating – so they ALL ignore you, and you need to repent of all that sin and return to a Biblical church that can counsel you and disciple properly as you deal with the bad habits you have trained your personality into to this day.  You give them reason to blaspheme our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ.  “because of you, the unbelievers / pagans blaspheme” (Romans 2:24; Isaiah 52:5; Ezekiel 36:20) Michael Brown does not do what you do. David Wood does not do what you do.  They are respectable.  (even Robert Sungenis and William Albrecht does not do what you do!) You even admitted this to Robert Sungenis.  Be ashamed of yourself. Repent. Mourn.  Read the book, “The Doctrine of Repentance” by Thomas Watson. Ritual prayers and crossing yourself won’t help you.  (nothing wrong with crossing yourself in the name of The Trinity, in itself, but you and those before you, in history turned it into a dead ritual that many do; without the power of the Holy Spirit.  There is no power in dead repetitive ritualistic prayers or physical motions or the right words in formalistic prayers. I have prayed for you and still do that God will bring you to repentance.  What you do (sinful anger, bullying, pugnacious spirit, insulting, cursing, lack of patience) is not glorifying to the Lord Jesus Christ.  You have lots of knowledge, but no power or character, and no love. (1 Corinthians 8:1; James 3:1-18; 4:1-6) 
I faced you after you taunted me over and over all day that day; and I did face you; and you hung up on me.  It is you who could not stand the heat and you hung on me because you still know that I am right (because it is in the Bible, and you know the Bible pretty well); because deep down you know everyone is right who has confronted you privately and you still don’t listen.
You demand respect ahead of time – you demand that everyone just bow down to you, and tippy toe and walk on eggshells before you and ask questions according to your own sinful arrogant desires.
You have no experience in church work, pastoral counseling, relating to people.  You are disqualified.  


Even Roman Catholic priests and EO, OO, and ACE priests would disqualify you if they knew about all the cursing and name calling and dirty mouth and sinful anger. 

Also, I found the Tovia Singer clip that Jai made (it is on another of your followers You Tube channels) and I have downloaded it myself. So I have it.

Addendum: Dec. 14, 2021

see the first decimation by Anthony Rogers

This bears repeating: With emphasis and embolden for Sam Tetzel Shamoun:

“Good job Anthony, I really appreciate you and your ministry, when I have time to listen. Great job on both in Sola Fide in the early church fathers, and on putting up Greg Bahnsen’s message; and you conduct yourself properly with people, which is what all ministers, evangelists, missionaries, apologists, elders, pastors should do – the qualifications for ministry are clear in the NT. (1 Timothy 3, Titus 1, James chapter 3, Acts 13:1-4 (affirmed, confirmed, and sent out by a local Biblical church). Also, you did a great job on Sola Scriptura a while back in explaining it to a group of a lot of RCs and EO, (and OO and Assyrian church of the east folks, and other non-Reformed Protestants, etc. One or 2 Roman Catholics commenters, one of them, that I interact with some, said, “A more sophisticated defense of Sola Scriptura than what we usually hear” (something like that).

This is about Sam Tetzel Shamoun: (not about Albrecht, he seems to debate properly.) Some others have lots of knowledge, but are full of pugnaciousness (just wanting to fight and curse and go ad hominem and name call and chest thumping, etc. and argue and win arguments rather than glorify God by godly behavior – 1 Timothy 3 is clear – “above reproach”, “not pugnacious”, and James 3 – someone who knows how to control their tongue), sinful anger and bitterness and cursing, which disqualifies them.

About Ken Temple

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a sinner who has been saved by the grace of God alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16), in Christ alone (John 14:6). But a true faith does not stay alone, it should result in change, fruit, good works, and deeper levels of repentance and hatred of my own sins of selfishness and pride. I am not better than you! I still make mistakes and sin, but the Lord is working on me, conforming me to His character. (Romans 8:28-29; 2 Corinthians 3:16-18) When I do sin, I hate the sin as it is an affront to God, and seek His forgiveness in repentance. (Mark 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:7-10; Colossians 3:5-16 ) Praise God for His love for sinners (Romans 5:8), shown by the voluntary coming of Christ and His freely laying down His life for us (John 10:18), becoming flesh/human (John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8), dying for sins of people from all nations, tribes, and cultures (Revelation 5:9), on the cross, in history, rising from the dead (Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 28, Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24; John 20-21; 1 Corinthians chapter 15). His resurrection from the dead proved that Jesus is the Messiah, the eternal Son of God, the word of God from eternity past; and that He was all the gospels say He was and that He is truth and the life and the way to salvation. (John 14:6)
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28 Responses to Anthony Rogers decimates Sam Shamoun & William Albrecht, Again!

  1. JUST FINISHED THIS: ANTH0NY ROGERS’ LIES, BLASPHEMIES, AND EISEGESIS DESTROYED AND BURIED AGAIN!

    Keep barking you vile, filthy dog.

    • Ken Temple says:

      Don’t worry, I will continue to confront you by posts, articles, and I am planning to do a video, Lord willing.
      It is you who were the coward when you hung on me, after cursing me and challenging me to come onto your show. I did; and you proved your sinful character.

      I doubt you read my article also.

      Repent of your sinful behavior and also your false gospel now.

    • Ken Temple says:

      2 Timothy 2:24-26?
      Notice it says the Lord’s bond-servant must be kind and patient with ALL . . .

      24 The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,

      25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.

      It does not say, “If they are respectful and humble first, then I will be respectful to them”

      When will Sam ever apply all those Scriptures that say, “Bless and curse not” and “do not repay evil for evil” ?
      Romans 12:14-21;
      “never take your own vengeance” – Romans 12:19

    • Ken Temple says:

      9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10

      revilers = people who are verbally abusive.
      1 Corinthians 5:11
      slandering, verbal abuse, railers (KJV)

      10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor those habitually drunk, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. (NASB)

    • Ken Temple says:

      Also, I found the Tovia Singer clip that Jai made (it is on another of your followers You Tube channels) and I have downloaded it myself. So I have it.

    • Here you go satanic filth. Make sure to enjoy this as I bury your false Gospel and your idol:

      • Ken Temple says:

        no problem. You have not refuted or buried anything. Your idol is yourself.

      • Ken Temple says:

        there you go again doing reviling / verbal abusiveness.

        the revilers will not inherit the kingdom of God.
        1 Cor. 6:10
        read and meditate on it. Study it.
        Repent.

      • Ken Temple says:

        The purpose of evangelism and apologetics is to Glorify God, not win arguments.

        All you want to do is win arguments. You don’t glorify God.

        Your words have no power.

        The kingdom of God does not consist in words (or ritualistic prayers and boasting and bombast and chest-thumping, bravado, etc.), but in power.

        1 Corinthians 4:20

  2. JUST FINISHED THIS: ANTHONY ROGERS’ LIES, BLASPHEMIES, AND EISEGESIS DESTROYED AND BURIED AGAIN!

    Keep barking you vile, filthy dog

    • Ken Temple says:

      “with our tongue, we bless God our creator, but curse mankind, who is created in the image of God” – James 3:9-10

      9 With the tongue we praise our Lord and Father, and with it we curse human beings, who have been made in God’s likeness. 10 Out of the same mouth come praise and cursing. My brothers and sisters, this should not be. James 3:9-10

      Sam:

      “Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. 2 We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.” James 3:1-2

      Repent!

      You need to repent and come back to the true gospel and repent of your wrong behavior towards Muslims, Jews, and people who disagree with you.

      • to answer your question, according to your Calvinism, it was God who predestined me to insult a filthy dog like you in the vilest manner, and also predestined me to do the sign of cross. You see how much of a stupid bastard you are?

      • Ken Temple says:

        Now you are more and more like a Muslim, using God’s Predestination and awesome power to justify your own sin.
        جبر
        مشیت
        Farsi terms that come from Arabic
        الجبر

        القدر

        Biblical Calvinists NEVER use God’s Predestination to justify sin. This just shows how shallow you are and how shallow you were in good Reformed literature and theology.

        God will hold you accountable on judgment day for your mockery of His sovereign freedom and you taking that and justifying your own sin and anger and bitterness and hatred and pugnacious spirit and reviling.

        revilers will not inherit the kingdom of God
        1 Cor. 6:10

        those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
        Galatians 5:19-21

        God will hold you accountable for every idle word that you constantly spew out.
        Matthew 12:33-37

        You are either a good tree or a bad tree. You have no fruit or character.

        your mouth speaks out of that which fills your heart.

        According to you trajectory now, how many centuries now are you going to have to spend in Purgatory?

      • Ken Temple says:

        Sam,
        Using Leighton Flowers cutsie tactic trick backfires on you as an inconsistent person, which is a failed argument, and you are a hothead reviler. Revilers will not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:10
        At least Flowers has civility in his argumentation. (even though flawed)
        But even L. Flowers believes in Sola Fide.

        You have no character and it shows that maybe you are reprobate, if you don’t repent before you die.

        more and more you are becoming like a Muslim, like Muhammad the false prophet of Islam. (you always have a spirit of vengeance which is one of the roots of Islamic demonic power; and, like Muslims, using God’s freedom and sovereignty as an excuse for your sin.)

        And rejecting Sola Fide, means you have to anathematize all your “Protestant” channel mods and fan boys and groupies. they are all are too afraid to confront you on your hot-headed sinful anger and reviling and bombast and bravado and stupid hee-man macho crap that you do.

        It is you who are the sissy and coward since you were the one who was afraid to face me when I called into your YouTube channel.

        You are a sissy !

        Perry Robinson fried your brain and he also fried every one else’s brain in your channel of groupies.

      • Are you still barking like a mad rabid dog? watch what I do to your demonic doctrines and your fake idol today on my stream

        And skype me to see how well you can refute Leighton Flower’s claims who is buying your demonic doctrines, little queerboy

      • Ken Temple says:

        Sam Shamoun:
        Your deep character and spirit is the spirit of revenge, just like the root of Islam and Islam’s god, Allah.
        Since you hung up on me, when I out of good faith called you into show (after you pestered me 3 or 4 times all day), and also since 2012 I have been emailing you privately with my brotherly concerns, you lost your chance, because it is you who is the coward and sissy, since it is you who would not face me.
        And I have sincerely prayed for you for years, but you hung up on me when I tried to start the conversation with something positive. You mocked and hung up on me.

        As you said to Anthony, “stay in your lane”. I admit I am not a fast talker or debater, so I will continue to confront you and your sin in the ways that I do. Your behavior in debates is disgusting and sinful anyway, talking over people and using bullying tactics, like that back and forth with Kelly Powers and the way you interacted with Matt Slick. Your character is sinful.

        either the tree is good or the tree is bad.
        Your mouth speaks out of what fills your heart. You will render judgement for those idle words and cursing and nasty talk on the day of judgement – Matthew 12:33-37

        you are the coward and bully

        hot-heads / revilers / verbal abusers will not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:10

      • Ken Temple says:

        Sam Shamoun:
        I confront you in the name of Jesus Christ, the eternal Son of God; you who do not seem to know in a personal relationship that results in godliness and holiness.

      • Ken Temple says:

        You have never refuted any of the Biblical doctrines of grace of historic Protestant faith.

        You also have caused the enemies of God to blaspheme by your behavior against Muslims.

        Romans 2:24
        the enemies of God blaspheme the true God and the truth of the Bible, because of you

        Isaiah 52:5
        Ezekiel 36:20-23

      • enjoy the destruction of your satanic doctrines which was predestined for me to do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgTh5-MqGlQ&t=1s

      • Ken Temple says:

        You did not do anything to the Truth of sound doctrine. Your character of a reviler is a disgrace and your sinful anger is a shame on Christ’s name. Revilers will not inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:10

        either the tree is good or the tree is bad.
        Matthew 12:33-37

        your sinful and anger and revenge spirit and always fighting back is the spirit of Islam. you are more like a Muslim than a Christian.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Also, Sam Shamoun, you are praying Mantra-like ritual prayers to the Triune God and Mary (mixing worship / prayers to a creature in with prayer to God, and that is wrong) – Rev. 19:10; 22:8-9.

        Yet, a few seconds later you curse out Muslims and anyone who does not agree with you; even cursing your own long-time listeners in your channel, when they disagree with you.

        Why doesn’t Mary help you overcome your sinful anger and reviling?

        Where is the “Virgin-Most Powerful” ?
        (A common saying among Roman Catholics) – see, google, “Virgin Most Powerful Radio”

        “Most Powerful” = ascribing attribute of God to her.

        Why doesn’t the Lord give you some level of power over your vengeful spirit?

    • Ken Temple says:

      You are not a prophet nor an apostle; so you cannot do what Jesus or Paul did in historical narrative.
      Your character and behavior is full of insults and arrogance and sinful anger and bravado and pugnaciousness (which disqualifies you from ministry – 1 Timothy 3:2-4) (you violate many of the qualifications, “above reproach”, etc. along with “respectable” and self-controlled”, etc. KJV – “not a striker)- Sam, meditate on the passages about qualifications for ministry. Meditate on James 3:1-18 and 4:1-10 – “with your tongue you bless God” (in your ritualistic and repetitive prayers on your show), then one second later, “and with you also curse men” people (mankind, humans) who are made in the likeness of God” (James 3:9-10) Also, you were too busy reading Jack Chick tracts and being discipled in shallow Evangelical churches (no telling how many you bounced around from because of your bullying and anger and inability to relate to people in a proper way. You even turn on your own mods and friends in your channel constantly.

  3. Jesus was a Prophet says:

    Any one find it amazing that Sam spent over 20 years trying to disprove the Qur’an’s claim that Christians take Jesus and Mary as gods besides God only for him to eventually prove it? All praise is due to God, and may he send His peace and blessings upon Jesus and Mary

    • Ken Temple says:

      To: “Jesus was a prophet”

      Except even neither Roman Catholics, nor Eastern Orthodox, nor the Coptic Church, nor the Assyrian Church of the East believe that Mary is a “god” or “goddess”; although they pray to her and have statues to her and icons of her. The Qur’an and Muslims have misunderstood these things, which shows the Qur’an is not inspired by God. The Qur’an misunderstands the Trinity, as demonstrated by what it says in Surah 5:72-78; 5:116; 6:101; 19:88-92.

      When the Quran talks about Jesus and Mary eating their food and that they are human (5:72-78), and “don’t say three” (4:171) and “only worship God” and 5:116 (God the Father, Jesus, and Mary) – it is obvious that the Qur’an misunderstood the Trinity.

      But granted, Protestants believe that the church at the time of Islam had started to add wrong practices (icons, statues, prayers to Mary) that confused the Muslims, and that confusion is reflected in the Qur’an. (late 400s to 600s AD)

      They should not pray to her. Prayer and bowing down in worship is only for God. Revelation 19:10; 22:8-9. There is only one mediator – 1 Timothy 2:5.

      By mixing prayers to Mary in with prayers to God, the Roman Catholics especially are doing something that looks like idolatry and may even be idolatry. There is no objective way to distinguish between latria (worship, adoration) and “dulia” (service, honor, veneration) and hyper-dulia (special extra honor given to Mary)

      • Jesus was a Prophet says:

        First you said, “Except even neither Roman Catholics, nor Eastern Orthodox, nor the Coptic Church, nor the Assyrian Church of the East believe that Mary is a “god” or “goddess”; although they pray to her and have statues to her and icons of her.”

        Then you said, “They should not pray to her. Prayer and bowing down in worship is only for God.”

        Therefore, since Christians pray and bow down to Jesus and Mary (like Jesus did to God), then they are taking them as gods besides God, unlike what they do with the Holy Spirit.

        Then you said, “”By mixing prayers to Mary in with prayers to God, the Roman Catholics especially are doing something that looks like idolatry and may even be idolatry.”

        We believe it is idolatry, as long as saying things that Jesus is the son of God as well as Mary being the mother of God. While, we of course we believe that both the Qur’an and the Bible, both the Old and New Testament, clearly classify this as idolatry, objectively, I would say any one who classifies a human as the son or mother of God has taken those people as gods besides God. If you don’t think that objectively calling Jesus or Mary as actual relatives of God, including his mother, is not taking them as gods, well I suppose we’ll just have to disagree then. I will say however, any non-Trinitarian Christian we’ll clearly see this as idolatry, but we can move on.

        “The Qur’an misunderstands the Trinity, as demonstrated by what it says in Surah 5:72-78; 5:116; 6:101; 19:88-92.”

        Qur’an is definitely representing Christian theology in 5:72-78, so I’m not sure what your objections are there; perhaps you can clarify, here are some relevant passages (which I’m guessing is your issue?):

        “Those who say, “Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary,” have certainly fallen into disbelief. The Messiah ˹himself˺ said, “O Children of Israel! Worship Allah—my Lord and your Lord.” Whoever associates others with Allah ˹in worship˺ will surely be forbidden Paradise by Allah. Their home will be the Fire. And the wrongdoers will have no helpers.”

        Obviously this is true, Christians (like yourself) say Jesus is God, and this is obviously idolatry both objectively and per the Qur’ans quotations of Jesus, which is the most important commandment as you and I both know.

        “Those who say, “Allah is one in a Trinity,” have certainly fallen into disbelief. There is only One God. If they do not stop saying this, those who disbelieve among them will be afflicted with a painful punishment.”

        I am so confused, don’t you believe in a Triune God, compose of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost? Jesus being one of the three? How is this a misunderstanding?

        Lets move on, verse 5:115 is the one Sam proves by taking Mary as a God, as well as you admit is the case when you said, “They should not pray to her. Prayer and bowing down in worship is only for God.”

        “And ˹on Judgment Day˺ Allah will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary! Did you ever ask the people to worship you and your mother as gods besides Allah?” He will answer, “Glory be to You! How could I ever say what I had no right to say? If I had said such a thing, you would have certainly known it. You know what is ˹hidden˺ within me, but I do not know what is within You. Indeed, You ˹alone˺ are the Knower of all unseen.”

        At this point I think we can come to the conclusion that you just want to disprove the Qur’an, when you don’t really have any good reason to. Jesus and Mary were humans, not Gods like you and Sam believe. They slept, ate food and went to the rest room. Stop taking them as gods besides God as this is both not-scriptural as well as illogical.

      • Ken Temple says:

        Christ is God, the second person of the Trinity, the eternal Son (John 17:5) and eternal Word (John 1:1-5) who became a human being through a virgin, Mary. (John 1:14; Luke 1:34-35; Philippians 2:5-8)

        But Mary is a creature, a human. The term Son of God is a good term for Jesus. He is the eternal Son. But prayers and icons and bowing down to statures of Mary is wrong, since she is not God nor a goddess. Roman Catholics and EO and other churches gave the wrong impression to Muslims. That the Qur’an misunderstands the Trinity is obvious since the Christians NEVER worshipped Mary nor put her in the Trinity, but the Qur’an thinks she is in the Christian Trinity, Surah 5:116.

        Christians don’t say, “Allah is the Messiah”; rather they say, “The Messiah is God” – by nature and substance. The Word / Son became a human being in history by being born of a virgin.

        Jesus is God in the flesh – John 1:1-5, 14-18; Philippians 2:5-8; John 17:5; John 20:28; 10:30; 5:17-18; Colossians 1:15-20; Hebrews 1:3-12.

        In the same context of 5:72-78, after it talks about Jesus and Mary eating food, it has in the context the idea that there is only one God, so it is talking about gods – thinking that the Christians take Mary as a goddess – but they never did officially, only that icons and statues and prayers to her gave the wrong impression to Muslims, that she was one of the Trinity.

      • Jesus was a Prophet says:

        Unfortunately, I have to reply to this post because of how the system is set up, but this is a reply the post that says:

        “Christ is God, the second person of the Trinity, the eternal Son (John 17:5) and eternal Word (John 1:1-5) who became a human being through a virgin, Mary. (John 1:14; Luke 1:34-35; Philippians 2:5-8)”

        So the Qur’an is not incorrect when it says that Christian believe Jesus is God and that God is one of three? What is your objection then?

        “But Mary is a creature, a human. The term Son of God is a good term for Jesus. He is the eternal Son.”

        Jesus was also a creature, a human, therefore referring to him as a “son” who was born of a virgin is polytheism. Catholics, and apparently Sam, take the mother and the son as a god besides God, while you only take Jesus as another god. I am not sure why you think that Islam is the only one that “gets it wrong” about what Christians believe, its what all non-Trinitarians, including Christians, understand about your belief. Your constant deflection that it is somehow only “Islam that gets it wrong” is ineffective because your interlocker recognizes that this obviously not true. Heck, Sam is spending all kinds of time on his Answering Islam blog trying to expose the Jehovah’s Witnesses for having the same “misunderstanding.” Maybe it was Islam (400-600 AD) that influenced them, right?

        “But prayers and icons and bowing down to statures of Mary is wrong, since she is not God nor a goddess. Roman Catholics and EO and other churches gave the wrong impression to Muslims. That the Qur’an misunderstands the Trinity is obvious since the Christians NEVER worshipped Mary”

        Yet they do, since they pray to her, therefore they consider her a god. This is how Islam understands what worship is, and this is what the Qur’an says is only done to a god. If you read the Qur’an at all, you would recognize that even the pagan Arabs didn’t consider their idols as gods, much like a lot of Hindus do today; they will tell you they are intercessors or spirits or whatever. That doesn’t make what they do into something other than idolatry. Just because you don’t “identify” your object of worship as a god, doesn’t make him not a god. There’s a justice warrior joke in there somewhere for someone who is funnier than me to find.

        Any way, I notice you never addressed how being a “mother of God” (literal thing Catholics believe) doesn’t make her a god. There was actually quite a bit that you didn’t address there, its like it was a “rehearsed response.”

        In conclusion, it seems that it is you that misunderstands the Qur’an, not that the Qur’an misunderstands Christian theology. Verse 5:116 never references the Trinity, it addresses that Christians, Catholics and non-Catholics alike take Jesus and Mary to gods besides God; both as objects of worship and as relatives of God.

        Then you went on to say, “Christians don’t say, “Allah is the Messiah”; rather they say, “The Messiah is God” – by nature and substance. The Word / Son became a human being in history by being born of a virgin.”

        God was born (i.e. he is a creature, a creation) and became a human… Notice how earlier, you said this disqualified Mary, peace be upon her, from being a god. I would love for you to address this, as the contradiction, in my opinion, is quite apparent.

        As far as the rest of your post, unfortunately, it was more of the same. God willing you will try to address my points if you see it fit for your time

        Peace

      • Ken Temple says:

        You wrote:
        “Jesus was also a creature, a human, therefore referring to him as a “son” who was born of a virgin is polytheism. “

        Because He pre-existed as the eternal Word (John 1:1-5; Philippians 2:5-8); the eternal Son (John 17:5) before He became human (John 1:14). The Trinity (Trinitas Unitas = three in one; and Unitas Trinitas = One in three) existed from eternity past = God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit; One God in substance / nature / essence ذات ، جوهر, three in person شخص ، اقنوم

        Therefore, the Trinity is not polytheism, and Jesus is God is not polytheism; but putting Mary with them is, which is what Roman Catholics unwittingly do.

        All I have time for right now. Lord willing, later.

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