2 John 9-11 roundup

  1.  James White’s excellent exegesis of 2 John 9-11

http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/2017/06/30/2-john-9-11-examined/

2.  Answering Sam Shamoun’s questions on 2 John 9-11

3.  My own initial exegesis of 2 John 9-11 in light of the current controversy.

4.  Recent Dividing line program from minute 56 until the end.  Dr. White shows that all the accusations of these Brannon Howse type – End Times Millennial Madness types (Jimmy DeYoung) –  patriotic/political Christians are totally wrong in the way they are using 2 John 9-11.

They accused Dr. White of relegating 2 John 9-11 as not even applicable at all to today. (Shahram Hadian said that).  (I am very disappointed in him, as he is Iranian, and I have learned his language and culture and I would have hoped for a more reasonable response from him.)  That is just not true.  (that Dr. White made 2 John 9-11 not even applicable at all for today)  Of course Islamic theology is an anti-Christ theology, etc. ( 2 John 7, 1 John 2:18-27; 4:1-6), and see my two articles above), but the point is this:  they (Muslims in general, Dr. Qadhi, and other Muslims who came to the 2 events of the Dialogue) are unreached unbelievers, and also are in communities that are typically separated from us and they usually don’t know much about true Christianity and have not met a true Christian; they are not former Christians or apostates who have left the church or false teachers who have infiltrated the church and are trying to deceive the believers in the church.  Again, the context of “going too far”  (2 John 9) and “not abiding in the doctrine of Christ” (2 John 9) along with “they went out from among us, because they were not really of us; in order that it might be shown that they were not really of us” (1 John 2:19) proves that this is about former church members and those that claimed to be Christians, apostates who claimed to be Christians and now have left the church, and there is plenty of application directly to false teachers today, liberal theologians and pastors and other heretics, like those who claim to be “Evangelical” and say that homosexuality is not a sin and that homosexuals can be married.

These verses cannot mean “don’t ever do hospitality outreach and invite unbelievers into your home” – that contradicts so many other passages on evangelism and mission – having people into our home and visiting them in their homes over a meal and talking to them about Jesus and the truths of Scripture is one of the MAIN ways to reach Muslims – a proper application of 1 Corinthians 9:19-23; the principle of ethne (nation, culture, ethnicity) – “all the nations” (Matthew 28:19; Revelation 5:9), the passages in the gospels that speak about Jesus eating with sinners and tax-collectors (Matthew 9, Luke 5), the way Jesus interacted with the Samaritan woman in John 4; and the passages in Acts where Paul engaged people with dialogue, reasoning, back and forth, listening to the other side so as to accurately understand what you are going to refute (Greek: διαλεγομαι) – Acts 17:2-4; Acts 17:11; Acts 17:17; Acts 18:4, 18:19; 19:8.

If a Christian wants to invite a Jehovah’s Witness or Mormon or homosexual in for a meal, to talk with them, I have no problem with that; that is a needed thing; but they should be equipped to deal with their arguments.  The same goes for out reach to Roman Catholics – the former Evangelical Roman Catholics usually have a lot of arguments from church history and historical theology and philosophy, and certain texts that most Evangelicals have not thought about before, so they should be equipped in those areas of apologetics before undertaking a heavy theological discussion with those type folks.  But the verses in 2 John 9-11 simply do not rule out all hospitality to unbelievers or cults.    If someone was a false teacher and left your local church or was disciplined, of course, they should apply the principles of Matthew 18:15-20.  This should be obvious.

Also,  verse 11 cannot mean “don’t give unbelievers like Muslims, don’t even give them a greeting” – that would contradict Matthew 5:46-47:

 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?  Matthew 5:47

Listen to the Dividing Line show from minute 55 or 56 until the end for application to 2 John 9-11 and the controversy around Dr. White/Brannon Howse/ Dr. Qadhi, etc.  The first part is excellent also, as Dr. White analyzes comments by William Lane Craig and apologetic methodology, etc.

 

Posted in Apologetics, missions, Evangelism, Exegesis | Leave a comment

The Real God of American Christians?

This below is a blog post by a Muslim. This is the overall impression that Muslims have of conservative patriotic political Christians, who are putting patriotism and politics above the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is nothing wrong with patriotism or just war principles or self-defense, as long as it comes secondary to the gospel and the Kingdom of God.  What happened to “Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness” Matthew 6:33 ?  and as C. S. Lewis said,”Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in; aim at earth and you will get neither.” C. S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, page 118)  The controversy around Dr. James R. White and his dialogue with Dr. Yasir Qadhi, and the response of so many conservative Christians, is giving a bad witness to Muslims. Dr. White has done an excellent job of defending the gospel, proclaiming the gospel and obeying 1 Peter 3:15 (apologetics with gentleness and respect) and Titus 2:9 “adorning the doctrine of God our Savior”. Ken Temple

Blogging Theology

By their fruit you will recognize them. – Matthew 7:16.

Take a look at a typical American Evangelical’s Facebook profile, what do you see? You’re sure to find pictures of Trump, the American flag, some anti-Muslim memes, Bible quotes and mostly political posts demonizing Muslim-Americans, Democrats and Liberals. See, there is a trend here, today’s Evangelical American Christians worship the state more than they do Jesus. That might seem like a controversial statement, but recently there have been some events that qualify this argument. In responding to a right-wing Evangelical American, Dr. James White says as follows (emphasis mines):

There is FAR more evidence in your own timeline that you have adopted a politically oriented Christianity than there is that I have adopted anything from Islam.

Steve, but when did the gospel become something you only explain to people who look like you and have the same political views?

YQ…

View original post 1,116 more words

Posted in Apologetics, Islam, Muslims, Politics | Leave a comment

Are patriotic political Christians making the same mistake of idolatry and adding man-made traditions as early church did?

From at the other blog I blog at, “Beggars All Reformation and Apologetics”

I am reposting this article I did back in 2009, with a new picture and updated links.  (both the old photo link was broken, and I felt it needed to have the links to the other articles I was referring to.)

http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2009/08/church-converted-into-mosque.html

Be sure to review all the articles linked to at the end of that article.

Now, in the light of all the controversy over Dr. White’s dialogue with Yasir Qadhi, and the impression that many conservative political / patriotic Christians give to Muslims,

see here:
https://bloggingtheology.net/2017/07/16/the-real-god-of-american-christians/#comment-52592

the question I have is this:  Are American patriotic / political Christians making the same mistake in a different area that the early church did by the over-exalting of Mary (see the articles at Beggar’s All) , neglect of the doctrine of justification by faith alone in the NT; and the additions of other man-made traditions?

It seems to me the same root of idolatry and leaving our first love.  Revelation 2:4-5

Addendum:

“Aim at heaven and you will get earth thrown in; aim at earth and you will get neither.” C. S. Lewis, page 118, Mere Christianity.  

The last part – “aiming at earth” is what political Christians do, the first part “aiming at heaven” is what Dr. White did in the dialogue with Dr. Qadhi and all the other outreach to Muslims, both before and afterward.

See more of my responses to the Dr. White / Yasir Qadhi controversy here at this blog:
www.apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com

(see many articles on this issue and responses, at least one or two every month since January of this year) – go to date archive on the side bar from January to July 2017; since January 2017, since Dr. White’s apologetic dialogue with Dr. Yasir Qadhi.)
Posted in Apologetics, Islam, Politics, Muslims, early church history | Leave a comment

Debate: Is Muhammad prophesied in the Bible?

Reblogged from March 9, 2015.

Apologetics and Agape

This is an excellent debate and I really appreciate the Muslims allowing a debate in their Mosque. (The East London Mosque, London, England)   This debate took place in 2012. Abdullah Al Andalousi did a great job in moderating and Zakir Hossein had a good spirit and tried hard to make his case for the Islamic position.

Dr. James White said something very important at the beginning of his time: (at the 31 minute mark)  My paraphrase – “We need to do this kind of thing more often, especially in the light of what is going on in our world today – communicate with each other with repect and honesty, to debate and disagree without being violent.”  Amen!Some select points and notes of important issues in this debate:

All of my notes are based on Dr. White’s answers and I have expanded and explained things more at some points…

View original post 2,160 more words

Posted in Apologetics, Islam, Muslims, Truth | Leave a comment

Dr. White’s clear gospel presentation in March 2017 in a Mosque, AFTER the highly criticized Dialogue with Dr. Qadhi in January of 2017.

This is proof that Dr. White has not compromised the gospel, as he shared it both hundreds of times in about 30 years (?) of ministry, and during the dialogue with Yasir Qadhi and after the dialogue with Dr. Qadhi, here.  Brannon Howse, Usama Dakdok, anger filled Sam Shamoun, Shahram Hadian (to a lesser extent), the “journalist” with “American Thinker” named James Simpson, and others who have accused Dr. White of compromise need to apologize for all the slander they have spread; and learn to put the gospel before politics.

Posted in Apologetics, Crucifixion of Jesus Christ, Islam, Muslims, The Atonement of Christ, Truth | 4 Comments

Dr. White on Michael Brown’s podcast, with 2nd hour discussion with Robert Spencer

 

see at Dr. Brown’s web-site.

Posted in Apologetics, Christian Attitudes toward others, Dhimmi / Dhimmitude, Islam, Jihad, Muslims, Truth | 15 Comments

Answering Sam Shamoun’s questions on 1 John & 2 John regarding the White/Qadhi dialogue

https://www.facebook.com/plugins/post.php?href=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.facebook.com%2FSamShamoun%2Fposts%2F1769614379722171&width=500

Sam Shamoun

HERE IS A QUESTION FOR JAMES WHITE AND ALL HIS FAN BOYS WHO SUBSCRIBE TO SOLA WHITIA (“SOLELY WHITE”), SO PAY ATTENTION.

Notice the snarky “Fan Boys” and “Sola Whitia” bombast buzzwords that sinfully angry Shamoun has to constantly apply in his rants and meltdowns.   Just because some of us think that Dr. White’s methods are better than his, he calls us “fanboys”, trying to accuse us of “idolatry” and “man-pleasers”.   

Seeing that the historical context of John’s Epistles, specifically the first and second ones, was one of proto-Gnosticisim, and therefore doesn’t speak to the modern cults of today, would you ever use the following verse to prove that Muhammad was an antichrist?

Of course we can use these verses, at the right time; but you don’t yell it at them at the beginning of trying to witness to people.  All you do Shamoun is yell and get angry and go bombast and snarky on people.  You should be ashamed of your bad witness.  No wonder no Muslims will debate you anymore and many of them accuse you of being mentally and emotionally unstable.  By your sinful behavior, name-calling, bombast, & snarky-ness, you gave them ammunition to use against yourself, unfortunately.  

“Who is a liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? Whoever denies the Father and the Son is the antichrist. No one who denies the Son has the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father.” 1 John 2:22-23

Muhammad denied the Fatherhood of God and the divine Sonship of Christ (cf. Q. 5:18; 6:101; 9:30; 19:88-93; 21:26; 39:4; 72:3). However, since John was addressing the proto-Gnostic heretics, and not Muhammad and Islam, would this prove per Sola Whitia that Christians can NEVER use this passage to prove that Muhammad was an antichrist as well?

No; of course those verses applies to Muhammad and Muslims  and Islamic doctrines today; but first we must / should establish an atmosphere where the Muslims will at least listen to our arguments and the gospel.  Even liberal theology is an anti-Christ religion, since it denies the incarnation, the Deity of Christ, the Father and the Son, the Doctrine of the Trinity, etc.  Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses too.  But we should do evangelism, have hospitality, and establish an environment where we can talk about all those things in a respectful way.   The proper method is not, “you cultist/demons you!” at Mormons nor at Muslims.  Shamoun never seems to obey 1 Peter 3:15 nor Ephesians 4:15 because he ignores half of the verses.  Shamoun totally ignores the “with gentleness and respect” part of 1 Peter 3:15 and the “speaking the truth in love” part of Ephesians 4:15.  There is no love in his methods.  

If you say yes then this means John’s epistles are irrelevant and have nothing to say about our current situation.

I say no; so you are just wrong.  But we are talking about the timing and appropriateness of when to use those verses.   Given that Dr. White explained the Deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity, he defended the doctrine of “the Father and the Son” and the incarnation in those meetings, and many many other times. 

Moreover, since according to Sola Whitia 2 John 1:7-11 was dealing with proto-Gnosticism does this mean if Muhammad lived at that time John would have encouraged the house churches/assembles to invite him in, give him safe lodging, support his ministry and permit him to teach his message without ever refuting or challenging him? Can White and his fanboys answer these questions honestly without tap dancing around them?

House churches on Sundays in the first century, are different than separated public church buildings in 21st Century on a Tuesday evening which is not a worship service on Sunday (like liberals and Chrislam types do) or prayer service or teaching time (which automatically makes it totally different than first century house churches), but a planned outreach to better understand Muslims from their own perspective, build a relationship, and be able to talk to them in a respectful way without scaring them away and scaring them into their closed off communities. No one said “give them safe lodging or support Yasir Qadhi financially”.  Dr. White shared the gospel, and doctrines of the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, original sin, the cross and resurrection, repentance, faith in Christ.  You need to repent of your sinful anger, bad methodology, and your slander of a Christian brother. 

A Biblical well taught church is suppossed to be mature enough to handle the kind of thing they did on that Tuesday evening.   Especially since anyone that knows Dr. White’s years of ministry and many other debates, and the 2 debates AFTER the Yasir Qadhi dialogue, any normal believer should understand White’s position and see the good in it and see the balance of apologetics/theology/truth along with graciousness/respect/love.   It is called evangelism and pre-evangelism and dialogue.  The elders of that local church have every right to do that kind of outreach.  Some churches would chose not do that kind of that outreach or dialogue, but that was no reason to slander and trash the whole thing. 

Now for the rest of you who do not subscribe to Sola Whitia [what’s the purpose of that snark and stupid comment that is not even true, just your own bombast ?

, do you see just how stupid, desperate and wicked White’s butchering of God’s Word happens to be?

 

No, Dr. White did a great job of defending the truth and did it with respect and integrity and love for the Muslims; which you do not do anymore.  Repent of your sinful anger, Sam.  

You did a good job against Anjem Choudary in 2015, (and vs. Shabir Ally years ago, one debate) but in the comboxes and facebook comments, you have lots of sinful anger; along with your “crusade” against Dr. White in the past 6-8 months. 

Also, see my earlier post on 2 John verses 9-11.

Also, see the 2 hour program linked above with Dr. White, Dr. Michael Brown, and Robert Spencer of “Jihad Watch” in the second hour.

Also, see recent Dividing Line programs:

June 19, 2017

June 16, 2017

June 13, 2017

 

 

Posted in Christian Attitudes toward others, Islam, Muslims, Sam Shamoun | 23 Comments