Denny writes:
“I have written numerous times about the florist in Washington state who is being sued for her refusal to participate in a gay wedding. Her story in particular is really troubling. She has been happily serving gay people in her shop for years. She served one gay couple for nearly a decade and had become good friends with them. But when they asked her to participate in their wedding ceremony, she politely declined. She is a Southern Baptist Christian, and she told them that she couldn’t participate because of her relationship with Jesus.
Word of her refusal spread through social media, and the attorney general of the state of Washington sued her for breaking the state’s nondiscrimination law. On top of that, the gay couple who she had been friends with for all those years also sued her. And now the ACLU has piled on as well.
I don’t know how anyone who knows the facts of this case can have anything but sympathy for Stutzman. She loves Jesus. She loves gay people. But now the state is trying to coerce her into participating in gay weddings. If she loses, she could lose her shop and her livelihood–all of this for the crime of obeying her conscience. This is a great injustice, and I hope people will see this for what it is–persecution.
Watch her story above, and share this video with as many people as you possibly can. And pray for Barronelle. She needs it right now.”
Apologetics and Agape 
No.
You “participate” in a gay wedding by marrying someone of the same sex. You witness a gay wedding by attending the ceremony and the celebration afterwards. Otherwise, there is no difference between refusing to sell flowers for a wedding and refusing to sell flowers because the couple are gay. I know the facts. I see that this florist is stupid, stubborn and un-Christian. Thank God that ACLU stands up for what is right.
Yes!
Glad you came back to comment, Claire. I hope all is well with you.
Did you watch the video?
[To Clare:]
That’s interesting. Would you mind telling me what it is that is unchristian about this woman’s actions? And perhaps how it isn’t unchristian to call people stupid? And then perhaps how to define “right,” since (evidently) the ACLU stands up for it?
Please and thank you.
Basically, Sam, look it up on the internet. It is all there, if you google for a minute. Seek and ye shall find. As a taster: follow the Bible. “Do good to those who hate you”- how much more, to those she claims she has felt friendship for, for years?
Dear Clare,
You didn’t answer one of my questions. I’m really hoping for your answers, that’s all.
Why is it unChristian? Because it is not following Christ, whom I quoted. You have to do some of the work here. I read the rubbish people write about poor silly cakemakers being “persecuted”, so I understand the foolish arguments on your side.
Clare,
It is unchristian to refuse to provide service for something you believe is wrong. Am I understanding you correctly?
Sam, try a little empathy. Here you are getting all steamed up. Why do you think the gay people have responded as they have in this situation? Is is just because we are wicked and hateful, or could it possibly be something else?
It is for the Christian to seek to bridge the divide. We have the freely given Love of Christ, after all.
Bits of it. It is not worth my time.
I did not like the whining of the woman. “Courage and knowledge and wisdom”, she says she wants, but she rejects the wise, courageous course of action: to admit she is wrong.
It is nauseating, isn’t it? That bit at the start, with homophobes writing to her, egging her on, pretending she is a martyr is the nastiest bit.
Clare,
Since you only watched bits of it; and your attitude is one of judgment before really thinking about what you are saying, you don’t really engage the debate properly. Calling people names like “stupid” and “homophobes” is not helpful, neither is your comment about “whining”. If the government comes in and forces her to take part in the celebration of a so called “same sex wedding ceremony”, that is tyranny. If you were fair, you would take a more unbiased approach and see that she did have a friendship with the homosexual who came to her shop and she served them and talked about art and flowers for years. She created and sold flower arrangements for them for 9 years. I don’t see whinning at all, since it is the power of government and lawyers that are seeking to destroy her. Granted, you may be lashing out emotionally at the mean treatment you have received when you were young, but you have to treat people on a case by case level. Just because some people were cruel to you when you were young, does not mean it is right for you to be cruel to this lady who did you no harm. The whole political “gay agenda” and LGBT political movement are the new bullies, taking revenge on others that were not the same people that treated them wrongly when they were growing up.
Clare:
All of the left and gay agenda of calling “homophobes” is just a tactic of trying to shut down conversation. And why do you advice a Christian to follow the Bible of “do good to those who hate you” ?? Do you believe the Bible? She, the florist, is the one who did no harm. They could have gone to another florist to do their so called “wedding”.
The biggest problem is the “gay agenda” and left that have re-defined the meaning of words. Homosexuals cannot marry each other, even though they are calling it that.
Jesus was clear in Matthew 19:4-6, quoting Genesis 2:24 and alluding to Genesis 1:1, 1:26-28, and 5:2
4 And He [Jesus] answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning [Genesis 1:1] made them male and female [Genesis 1:26-28; 5:2] , 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? [Genesis 2:24] 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.” Matthew 19:4-6
If you quote and believe “do good to those who hate you”, then you must believe the other parts of the Bible also.
Neither Sam nor I are getting “steamed up”. It is the gay agenda that marches in parades over the last 20-30 years and being “in your face” and doing lots of disgusting behavior in public and also getting so steamed up so as to attack businesses and demand special rights and privileges and take cases to the courts and sue people, and seek to force our government to approve of sinful and disgusting behavior. It is the gay agenda that took it out of the bedroom and privacy and is forcing the rest of us to have to see and think about the sinful and disqusting behavior of homosexuality and lesbianism, Bi-sexuality, transgender issues – like the murderer who demands the government pay for his surgery and hormone treatment, while he is in prison; and a judge ordered it. Those are examples of “getting steamed up” – the reason why the gay agenda is winning is that so many who don’t agree with it are not getting “steamed up” and making the reasonable and logical case against the “gay agenda”, for fear of being called a homophobe or bigot. http://blogs.wsj.com/law/2012/09/04/judge-orders-sex-change-operation-for-federal-prisoner/
[your comments are edited. Sorry for the delay in approval. Lack of time is the main reason.]
‘and doing lots of disgusting behavior in public’
Have you been out on a Saturday night and see what the drunken heterosexuals are doing up alleyways, in door ways, on park benches, take a look at the out the way parking area in country parks, sex in the back of the car while other watch, its called ‘Dogging’ and you can find websites that openly inform the would be Dogger where to find the main event.
These people are taking out the bedroom and displaying it in public and inviting total strangers to watch.
[True, those are all disgusting and sinful behaviors. But there is no political agenda to make them approved of in greater society. Most reasonable people know that all of those things are wrong and there are legal and criminal consequences to them. ]
Did you know the majority of sexual attacks on children are done by heterosexual males and females.
[Probably correct. Disgusting also, agreed. If caught, they are criminal acts that carry legal penalties. They are done in secret as proof of their wickedness – John 3:19-21 – they hate the light and hide in the darkness. That still does not make so called “same-sex marriage” right. Two wrongs don’t make a right.]
When have you ever seen a Love Festival organised by heterosexuals
[no, don’t know and don’t care to know about a “love festival”]
I am straight and I have been to two of the Love Festivals and I have never before been in the company of people who have shown such friendliness to both gay and straight.
[friendliness yes – good; but approval of a political agenda to change culture and the meaning of words – no.]
Its straight people who have a problem about gay people, Gay people do not have a problem with straight.
[No, the objection is the poltical agenda to change the meaning of words and force the rest of us to accept homosexualty as not sinful and that so called “same sex marriage” is ok. ]
Gay people do not have acid for blood, they do not sprout horns on a full moon, they are not the 7th son of a 7th son, they don’t want to rape you or your children, they don’t camp outside public toilets or hide behind trees
[I never wrote or implied any such thing. non sequitter argument.]
Have you heard of ‘Corrective Rape?’ I will tell you anyway and you tell me if this is right or wrong.
‘Corrective rape is the use of rape against people who do not conform to perceived social norms regarding human sexuality and gender roles, with goals of punishing “abnormal” behaviour and reinforcing societal norms. The crime was first identified in South Africa, where it is sometimes supervised by members of the woman’s family or local community, and is a major contributor to HIV infection in South African lesbians. Corrective rape has also been known to occur in Thailand, Ecuador, and Zimbabwe. Corrective rape and other accompanying acts of violence can result in physical and psychological trauma, mutilation, HIV infection, unwanted pregnancy, and may contribute to suicide.
Now that is disgusting behaviour and its done in public!
[yes, that is all wrong. Agreed]
In 2006 there were 85,000 women raped in the UK, equating to about 230 cases every day. UK. Home Office crime data for England and Wales show that, in 2010-2011, a total of 9901 rapes of victims aged 16 years and above were recorded, of which 96% were female and 4% were male.
Now who is disgusting?
I am sick to death of people especially so called Christians who play all high and mighty and think they have the moral high ground and look down [edited because of sinful language] on people the think they are below them.
[No one here is thinking they are better than anyone else – we are all sinners, guilty before God equally and in need of a Savior. Romans 3:9-23. Taking the lady to court and suing her is a cruel and unjust thing; when they could have just quietly gone to another florist down the street. who is not being peaceful? ]
Just for once look around you and stop and think of all the harm you are doing in the name of Christ,
[Actually, those that claim to be Christians and yet defend any kind of so called “same sex marriage” are the ones doing harm to the name of Christ.]
no wonder church numbers are falling because of the pompous attitude of people who constantly put down people who just wish to live their lives peacefully with their love one
[No; the homosexuals doing these legal actions, etc. don’t want to just live their lives peacefully; they are making a political agenda and trying to force society to approve of it and change the meaning of words. they could be peaceful by keeping it all at home.]
and attend church without persecution…….Oh yeah wasn’t Christ persecuted for his beliefs and the way he lived his life.
[Such a twisting of the Bible and the author’s intended meanings of words.]
Pingback: “Christians” and weddings | Clare Flourish
[Edited]
So this florist is a Christian, that is established, she has gay friends that is established, she has sold flowers to her gay friends that is also established, so what is the difference between a white lilly sold to a gay person and sold to a gay person who is getting married? Are they not the same person who bought flowers on a Monday and wanted to buy flowers for a wedding on a Saturday? Did they grow horns and a pointy red tail on the Friday, did they suddenly commit a crime? No nothing has changed, they were gay on the Monday and still gay on the Saturday when they get married.
[Doing the floral arrangements is more involved than just buying a flower. When they sued her, they did sort of “grow horns” so to speak. They could have peacefully gone to another florist.]
I am a Christian, I gave my life to Christ, I try and live my life by *Christian values that means loving my fellow human, gay, straight, red, black, pink or yellow. If you read the old testament yes it does say a man who lays down with another will be stoned
[edited for off color comments]
But where in the New Testament does it say anything about gay relationships……..it doesn’t,
[Matthew 19:4-6 – Jesus clearly excludes all others from marriage except one man and one woman – Jesus alludes to Genesis 1:1 (the Creator from the beginning), 1:26-28; 5:2 – male and female, the two; and quotes Genesis 2:24 in full. So both Genesis chapters 1-2 and Jesus in Matthew 19 define what marriage is – one man and one woman. Also, the homosexual acts are always evil and wrong. Romans 1:18-28; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; 1 Tim. 1:8-11.]
it talks about love, loving everyone doesn’t matter who, Christ loved a prostitute, he loved the taxman, he loved the Roman solider who gave him vinegar to drink, he loved the solider who thrust the spear into his side, loved the criminals who were crucified along side him, he loved everyone doesn’t matter what background, what country, young, old, disabled, Prostitute or GAY, he loved everyone.
[He loved everyone but didn’t approve of sin. Sometimes it is very loving to rebuke and correct. Hebrews 12:5-12 – God disciplines, rebukes, and corrects those He loves. Jesus said, “those I love, I rebuke and discipline, be zealous therefore, and repent” – Revelation 3:19)]
So what makes this Christian florist or her supporters different? I will tell you what makes them different, they listened and was taken down the wrong path, the path of hatred and fear by preachers who also was taught wrong.
[not approving of some sin is not hatred or fear.]
It seems to me that hypocrisy reigns supreme in some of our churches today,
[true; no argument from me on that; but broadbrush arguments like that don’t do much good to resolve the specific arguments and issues.]
with Sunday Christians and those who are so quick in damning others for their life choices and then go home, looking up porn on the net, swearing while not getting the lawnmower working, knocking back a few beers while the BBQ heats up and having a snort of coke or a relaxing joint….
[one can argue about “a few beers” being sin – drukenness is sin, not drinking alcohol per say. The others are sinful; and wrong, yes; but two wrongs don’t make a right. no one is on a political agenda to get sinful anger approved of in court. You have “sweared” and used dirty language here also – I edited it out. So you are hypocrite also; your own methods also condemn you.]
Some ‘Christians’ are quick enough to condemn, but how many keep the Sabbath holy, broke the law by speeding on the freeway, not declaring certain items on their tax returns, had a fumble with the office girl in the stationary cupboard, hated others just because of the way some people were born, hate people by the colour of their skin…….How many have just had a little pang of guilt
Those without sin cast the first stone………….or does that not count with a florist and her supporters
[apples and orgages type arguments; non sequitters. the gay couple could have peacefully gone to a different florist. Suing her is an act of aggression and hatred, and part of a political agenda, it seems to me.]
*(even though I do not call myself a Christian because I do not wish to be associated to these people who call themselves Christians but preach selfish and hypocritical nonsense, I have my faith and its between the Lord and myself),
[there is no such thing as “me and my Lord by myself” – there are two many verses about the church, the body of Christ, teaching, church structure – elders, pastors, deacons, etc. and how to function, love one another, forgive one another, etc. to ignore that. You cannot grow without trials and tension in relationships with others.]
God Bless and I do hope that you question your ideals and faith and I do hope that you listen to the voice in your head and you make the right choice, if you are finding it difficult stop what you are doing and ask God for guidance and just open your heart and listen to what is being said.
[thanks for your thoughts. Guidance comes from having our minds and hearts constantly changed by the power of the Holy Spirit working through the word of God, the Scriptures, as we renew our mind and character. Romans 12:1-2; Ephesians 4:20-24; Colossians 3:1-17. You like some things in the Bible, but reject others. You seem to just pick and choose according to your own mind.]
I completely understand. I have the same problem with my wedding cake business.
violetwisp – a good use of some humor and some reality check for Pharisees. Romans 2:1-4 also condemns us all as sinners. You have a point, but in making your point, you are admitting that same sex marriage is sin. Because many divorces are sinful, pre-marital sex is also sinful, and sexual fantasy/lust as in Matthew 5:28 is sinful. But heterosexual lust is too much of a good thing, whereas homosexuality is wrong by nature. Gluttony is too much of a good thing; whereas homosexuality is always wrong. All divorce is not sinful (see Matthew 5:31-32 and 19:8-9 and I Cor. 7:15 (if an unbeliever leaves, the other is not under bondage in such cases). So your first example is not accurate enough.
You wrote:
“. . . as I’ve searched the Bible and it is stated nowhere that committed same sex relationships are sinful.”
Well, it does, because of Matthew 19:4-6 – Jesus quotes from Genesis 2:24, and alludes to Gen. 1:1 (The Creator) and 5:2 and 1:26-28 (male and female). The two (only two, one male and one female) shall become one. So marriage is only for one man and one woman; and, so Jesus did speak out the issue, by affirming what marriage really is. So automatically, so called “same sex committed relationships” are ruled out. And the act itself of homosexual sex is by nature sinful always – Romans 1:18-28; 1 Corinthians 6:9-11; 1 Timothy 1:8-11.
Clare Flourish – in your article here, – Thanks for calling me an “idiot” and introducing me to a new word. (eejit) You seem to appreciate some of the Bible, but not all of it. You pick and chose what you want. If one just buys pre-arranged flowers that is not participating; but if the florist has to go and set things up and get more involved in the details, then there is some “Participation”. Same for catering, and photography. But reasonable Christians are not arguing for “no service” at all. If they want to buy something already ready that is fine. The problem comes with having to put 2 plastic men or 2 plastic women on top of the cake or decorating it with writing that says, “Steve and David, happily married”, etc.
This is a good sermon on the issue. http://www.desiringgod.org/sermons/let-marriage-be-held-in-honor-thinking-biblically-about-so-called-same-sex-marriage
Well, honestly. I quote the Gospel and Paul, and, ignoring those passages, you accuse me of picking and choosing in the Bible. The point I was making is that this florist is trying to exert power over her fellows, following Caiaphas and Pilate rather than Christ. So, she says the couple are exerting power: that is the way of the world, and the Christian way to overcome the world is not to exert power.
You are wrong about Violet. Nowhere does she say gay marriage is sinful. She points out that you have strained at a gnat, a rare matter, and swallowed the camel of what happens constantly.
Jesus was asked about straight divorce, not gay marriage. Why you imagine that passage has any relevance to gay marriage is beyond me. Yet “the two shall become one flesh” happens for gay couples as well.
“You are wrong about Violet. Nowhere does she say gay marriage is sinful. “
Where did I say that? She actually says the opposite in her article.
Homosexuals cannot become “one” in the sense that the Bible means it. They are just joining and rubbing physcial bodies. there is no “oneness” in any homo-sexuality.
“you accuse me of picking and choosing in the Bible.”
That’s right – because you ignore the plain verses like Romans 1:18-28, I Cor. 6:9-11, 1 Tim. 1:8-11; and yet seem to quote some other verses about love and kindness and “do not judge”, etc.
oh, I see what you are saying now,
“You have a point, but in making your point, you are admitting that same sex marriage is sin.”
to use divorce, pre-marital sex, lust, etc. as sins in order to argue the way she does, is indirectly admitting that homosexuality and same sex marriage is sin. She doesn’t realize it, but it indirectly does do that. It is an inconsistent and illogical kind of argument.
I disagree. Where homosexual sex is mentioned it’s either explicitly promiscuous male on male anal sex, or as a promiscuous sex punishment for women who were naturally heterosexual (Romans 1:26-27). There is no mention of long-term, committed same sex relationships between people who are naturally gay, because there was no opportunity to understand what that would look like. We have the opportunity now – and there are no harmful outcomes, just people finally being able to live openly with someone they love.
I would suggest you need to stop believing a benevolent creator god would be so irrational about this subject. You’ve accepted you don’t need slaves, you don’t need to stone adulterers and that you can eat pigs. In my experience the Christians who feel most ‘disgusted’ by homosexual relationships are ones who are in denial of their own homosexual urges – and that’s why the emphasis falls on specific non-compulsory sex acts, rather than the loving relationship as a whole.
“Where homosexual sex is mentioned it’s either explicitly promiscuous male on male anal sex, or as a promiscuous sex punishment for women who were naturally heterosexual (Romans 1:26-27)”
Actually, the text says that that both lesbian sex and male homosexual sex are unnatural and wrong. Of course it is always promiscuous, even when trying to claim there is a “loving, long-term commitment”.
I understand those interpretations – they are revisionists arguments, made prominent by John Boswell and others. “Another interpretation of homosexual supporters is that Paul is condemning heterosexuals acting in an ‘unnatural’ way as homosexuals. For example, John Boswell says: “The persons Paul condemns are manifestly not homosexual: what he derogates are homosexual acts committed by apparently heterosexual persons. The whole point of Romans 1, in fact, is to stigmatize persons who have rejected their calling, gotten off the true path they were once on.” (John Boswell, Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1980), Pg. 335.
“In my experience the Christians who feel most ‘disgusted’ by homosexual relationships are ones who are in denial of their own homosexual urges . . . ”
I guess there are some people like that ( I would not know, but 2 famous examples are below) – Hollywood movies seem to try and make that case. As in that movie with Kevin Spacey – “American Beauty”, and others. I have heard people make that argument, but I don’t accept it.
I guess you mean folks like Ted Haggard and George Rekers was accussed of that. Those guys are hard to understand. If the accusations against Rekers are true, he is hard to understand.
“I would suggest you need to stop believing a benevolent creator god would be so irrational about this subject.”
Some people do have more propensity to certain sins – some people are more naturally gluttons that others, and some more tempted by alcohol than others and some stuggle with anger more than others, etc. Some struggle with same sex attractions. That does not make them “naturally gay”, etc. There is no doubt that all sin is genetic. We are all sinners at the time of conception. (Psalm 51:5, 58:3, Genesis 8:21; Romans 5:12) We are selfish and prideful from the beginning. But just because some people have some sin tendencies more than other people, does not mean that we can justify sins and sinning by “that’s just the way I am”. We all have some kind of brokenness in our souls. But there is hope in the gospel of Christ.
This is a good debate between the kind of argument you are trying to make (Justin Lee) and the traditional position of what the Bible teaches. (James White)
http://www.aomin.org/aoblog/index.php/2013/05/22/gay-christianity-debated/
He also links to responses to Matthew Vines.
Michael Brown’s book, “A Queer Thing Happened to America” is also another good book.
Thanks for link and the references for further reading. I’m not clear how you link same sex attraction with urges to over drink, over eat, or get angry. The latter all have negative outcomes so the idea that a god would make rules against them has some logical value. What’s the negative outcome of two mutually attracted people making a long-term, loving relationship together? Perhaps gay relationships are something you imagine rather than actually know about? I think that as the opinion of the Bible clearly comes down to debatable interpretation, Christians should go with the most logical and loving conclusion. Long term same sex relationships are just as valid as their heterosexual counterparts – and asking gay people to live their lives any other way is unreasonable, unjustified and cruel.
Jesus was clear in Matthew 19:4-6 – Quoting and alluding from Genesis chapters 1-2; from the beginning of creation, the Creator created people either man or female, and marriage is only for one man and one woman. It also shows changing your body through hormones, and surgery is a rebellion against the way God created you.
“surgery is a rebellion against the way God created you”
Ah, so you’re against medical intervention – removing a cancerous tumour would be a rebellion against the way God created you too, or corrective surgery for cleft palate. I can see how that would make sense to Christians.
No I am not against medical intervention, etc. – you make false analogies.
Surgery to change one’s sexual organs and sexuality is a rebellion against the God created the person. A person’s chromosomes determine that. It is a rebellion against the way God made that person. But the other examples you give – cancer and cleft palate are examples of disaeases and deformity. Not valid analogies.
Conditions such as Wolf–Hirschhorn syndrome are determined by the chromosomes you believe your god creates, and this often results in cleft palate. It’s therefore a valid analogy. By your reasoning, any condition we are born with shouldn’t be treated or altered because it would be a rebellion against your god’s creation. It’s the same rationale that made many Christians resistant to the development of medical interventions down through the ages. Faith cures, anything else is judgement from the god God. It has biblical backing, so it’s understandable you interpret it like that.
Every disease and all birth defects are part of the brokeness of the rebellion of Adam and Eve against God in the garden. (Genesis 3; Romans 5:12; Psalm 51:5; Psalm 58:3; Genesis 8:21; Romans 8:18-25, especially verse 21 – the creation was subjected to corruption and futility because of mankind’s rebellion against God. Same sex attractions are a kind of brokeness/a corruption of the original, not something natural as intended originally, but part of sinful tendencies that people have. Some people have different kinds of brokeness tendencies. Some have a tendency to self-pity, some have anger tendencies, some have alcoholism or gluttony tendencies. No one is better than anyone else. We are all sinners. I want to make it clear that I don’t think I am any better than you, and I hope nothing I have communicated gives that impression. Pharisee-ism and arrogance is also sin, yes. You were the one who brought up anger, swearing, pornography, cocaine, too much drinking, etc. in your article – these sinful tendencies are part of “slavery to corruption”. Sin, death, corruptions, deformities are some of the consequences of sin in the heart (Mark 7:20-23; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9) and the consequence of man’s rebellion against God.
Gluttony is too much of a good thing, food; but same sex activity is always wrong by nature. Laziness and sloth is too much of a good thing, rest and relaxation. Drunkeness is too much of a good thing. A beer with a burger, or a glass of wine with a steak is not sin. But there is a point which too much of it becomes sin. But homosexual sex is always wrong. All sin is genetic – that is what those verses above teach – but they are a judgment on our rebellion and sinfulness – those that don’t fight the sinful urges and give in to them, eventually, if stubbornly demanded, are given over to slavery to them – Romans 1:22-28. All homosexual lust and actions are by nature wrong. There is no such thing as “committed loving homosexual monogamous relationships”. They may be “nice”, but they are not truly loving according to the Bible’s definitions of love and marriage. The only reason conservative, Biblical Christians disagree with the “gay agenda” is not to be mean to those people who struggle with same sex attractions, or who want to live together in their homosexuality, etc.), but only because it is wrong by nature, because it is against God’s design for marriage, and by being wrong, it is a bad influence on society as a whole. It is wrong to teach children that homosexuality is ok and fine. Homosexuals are the ones who have taken it out of the bedroom and privacy and are trying to force the rest of us to approve of it. That is wrong. They already have all the normal rights that every one else already has. If they want to give their inheritance to their partner, they can put that in their wills, etc.
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19 For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23 And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24 For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.
Romans 8:18-25