13 Things you didn’t know about the Papacy

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2015/05/13-things-you-didnt-know-about-papacy.html

John Bugay over at Triablogue, has an excellent summary here of the Papacy issues.

Because of space, and the purpose to keep to a one page sheet evangelistic tract, it may be hard to include these other issues:

I would add: (this is not a criticism of John’s article, just some other points that came to mind after I read through his summary.)  Be sure to read the first 13 first, then theses:

14. that Peter himself calls himself “fellow-elder” in 1 Peter 5:1. no heirachy of mono-episcopate or papacy idea.

15. Also, if Peter had a successor, a bishop of Rome as infallible successor, he would have said, “listen to him, who will be able to remind you of these things (spiritual truths)” or “he is the living voice, who will be able to stir up your sincere minds”, etc. in 2 Peter 1:12-18; but instead, Peter points them to his letter/scripture – 3:1 – this is the second letter by which I am writing to you in order to stir up your sincere minds” – same idea in 2 Peter 1:12-18 – knowing that he is about to die, he is diligent to put forth effort to stir up their sincere minds – (diligent by writing the letter from prison before his death.)

16. I would distinquish between the RC idea of infallible succession of person and office (bishop/ mono-episcopate) to Peter vs. the biblical idea of appointing qualified elders – as in Acts 14:23 and Titus 1:5 and 1 Timothy 3. ( maybe need more details on # 5 – the quote by Oscar Cullman about the principle of succession. Does Cullman explain the difference between the Roman Catholic claim of infallible apostolic succession in the successors of Peter and other church bishops vs. the Biblical idea of appointing qualified elders in each local church? – Acts 14:23Open in Logos Bible Software (if available) and Titus 1:5Open in Logos Bible Software (if available); I Timothy 3:1 ffOpen in Logos Bible Software (if available), ?)

17. Some kind of an explanation of “papa” (father) and acknowledge 1 Cor. 4:15-17 and 1 Timothy 1:2 as something that existed – calling someone a spiritual father – one who led a person to Christ and /or taught them the gospel and discipled them in the Scriptures as a young Christian, etc. And that existed in the early church in all the churches as all ministers/elders/ later development into “priest” were considered and called “papa”/father (spiritual father), so bishops and elders of other areas were called “papa”, such as Cyprian in Carthage and Athanasius in Alexandria – even today, the leader of the Coptic Church in Egypt is called “Pope”. The point is, “Pope” was never an exclusive term only for the bishop of Rome, but was used for all ministers in all churches. (until centuries later)

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About Ken Temple

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a sinner who has been saved by the grace of God alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16), in Christ alone (John 14:6). But a true faith does not stay alone, it should result in change, fruit, good works, and deeper levels of repentance and hatred of my own sins of selfishness and pride. I am not better than you! I still make mistakes and sin, but the Lord is working on me, conforming me to His character. (Romans 8:28-29; 2 Corinthians 3:16-18) When I do sin, I hate the sin as it is an affront to God, and seek His forgiveness in repentance. (Mark 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:7-10; Colossians 3:5-16 ) Praise God for His love for sinners (Romans 5:8), shown by the voluntary coming of Christ and His freely laying down His life for us (John 10:18), becoming flesh/human (John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8), dying for sins of people from all nations, tribes, and cultures (Revelation 5:9), on the cross, in history, rising from the dead (Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 28, Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24; John 20-21; 1 Corinthians chapter 15). His resurrection from the dead proved that Jesus is the Messiah, the eternal Son of God, the word of God from eternity past; and that He was all the gospels say He was and that He is truth and the life and the way to salvation. (John 14:6)
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20 Responses to 13 Things you didn’t know about the Papacy

  1. θ says:

    Jehovah maintains the kingdom of David even though Solomon and other Judah kings fell into idolatry. Jerusalem Temple maintains itself being a God’s house even though it was tainted by the idols that Solomon and other Judah kings put in.

    Succession of hierarchy which God sets is infallible. Now the question for RC to answer, which rank is the Pope?
    1Cor 12:28
    And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

  2. Ken Temple says:

    True, there is no “Pope” in Scripture, nor in the earliest centuries of the history of Christianity. The office of the Papacy did not exist at all. It was developed later.

    The RCC claims that Peter was the first Pope. If he was, why didn’t Peter mention that in his two letters, especially 2 Peter 1:12-18, where he talks about knowing that his death is imminent, yet points the people to the written Scriptures ( 2 Peter 3:1, 1:12-21) – he is basically saying – “I will be diligent to stir up your sincere minds to the truth, so that when I am gone, you will have the Scriptures to read and remind yourself of the truth.”

  3. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: yet points the people to the written Scriptures ( 2 Peter 3:1, 1:12-21)”

    Peter is an apostle (1st rank). Pope is a word for the teacher and the governments of church at the 3rd rank.
    Peter directs his followers into Scripture because 1Cor 12:28 is available in the written Scripture for the early Christians.
    1Cor 12:28
    And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

  4. Ken Temple says:

    No, “Pope” (the word just means “father”), but the doctrine of the Pope or Papacy of Roman Catholicism means the bishop of Rome, who is bishop over all other bishops in the entire world, who is infallible and can over-rule all other bishops and churches and bind and loose – declare what is right and what is wrong. There is NO SUCH THING in the Scriptures, nor in the early centuries of Christianity.

  5. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: the bishop of Rome, who is bishop over all other bishops in the entire world, who is infallible and can over-rule all other bishops and churches and bind and loose – declare what is right and what is wrong. There is NO SUCH THING in the Scriptures, nor in the early centuries of Christianity.”

    Bishop is not set by God. After the end of appointment of 1st and 2nd rank, the church just has 3rd rank and its subgroups left. Hence, if the succession of the 3rd rank had also broken off, the promise of having a protected (infallible) church – which the gates of hell can’t prevail against – must have been unfulfilled, and therefore Jesus is a fallible man.

    Succession of authority of the church symbolises the infallibility.
    Succession of church’s hierarchy which Jehovah sets is infallible. Jehovah maintains the kingdom of David even though Solomon and other Judah kings fell so badly into idolatry. Jerusalem Temple maintains itself being a God’s house even though it was tainted so badly by the idols that Solomon and other Judah kings put in.
    Mt 16
    18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
    Jn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

  6. Ken Temple says:

    “Bishop is not set by God.”

    What do you mean by this statement? This and other statements of yours are hard to understand in plain English.

  7. Ken Temple says:

    Churches have teachers (what you are calling a third rank) – “pastor-teachers” (Ephesians 4:11-12) and all elders-overseers (bishops) are required to be able to teach. (study, know, and be able to teach sound doctrine and refute false doctrine and counsel people)

    Churches are to appoint elders so they will have leadership. (Acts 14:23; Titus 1:5-7; 1 Tim. 3, Philippians 1:1; Acts 20:17, 28; 1 Peter 5:1-4)

    But there is nothing about infallibility of the teachers.

  8. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says:But there is nothing about infallibility of the teachers.”

    What is infallible is a setting of church’s rank of hierarchy or church’s office by Jehovah. Not a person. It is like sacredness of Temple despite idolatry of Levite priests and Judah kings.
    Kubernesis (governments or steering committee of church) in 1Cor 12:28 is mentioned. It is actually a subset of the 3rd rank, but based on its real function Kubernesis is the head of other subsets.

    Hence, if the succession of the 3rd rank had also broken off, the promise of having a protected (infallible) church – which the gates of hell can’t prevail against – must have been unfulfilled, and therefore Jesus is a fallible man.

  9. Ken Temple says:

    Protected is different than infallible. “church” , ekklesia / εκκλησια means “an assembly of people gathered together”, and means theologically “the people of God gathered together for worship and teaching and fellowship”. (see Acts 2:38-46) Doesn’t necessarily include a building. There were always churches (some don’t have buildings but meet in homes and / or on the beach or in the woods in countries that Christians are persecuted) and true believers in history. That does not mean that they were perfect or infallible.
    “church” in Matthew 16:18 does not mean “a building with an infallible steering committee”.

    In other passages, it says that Jesus bought the church with His blood –
    Ephesians 5:25 – Christ gave Himself for the church
    Acts 20:28 – shepherd the church of God, which He purchased with His own bloood.
    Revelation 5:9 shows that the redemption/purchasing with Christ’s blood was for people from all cultures, languages, ethnic people groups.

    So, “the church” means “true believers”, not buildings or infallible teachers or steering committees.
    True believers are not overcome by death.
    There is always true believers in Christ, down to this day.
    Therefore Jesus’ statement is true and never failed.

  10. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says:So, “the church” means “true believers”, not buildings or infallible teachers or steering committees.True believers are not overcome by death.”

    How can they be “true believers” if they failed to maintain the rank of hierarchy which Jehovah has set for the church?
    1Cor 12:28
    And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

    What Christ gave, purchased, and promised is not just some unorganised believers but the group with rank of hierarchy which Jehovah has set for the church.

  11. Ken Temple says:

    The promise is not that they would be an organized hierarchy, but that spiritual death would not overtake them.

    Spiritual death never overcomes a true believer. True believers will go to heaven and inherit eternal life.

    John 11:25
    Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies,

  12. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says:The promise is not that they would be an organized hierarchy, but that spiritual death would not overtake them.Spiritual death never overcomes a true believer. True believers will go to heaven and inherit eternal life.”

    A “true” believer obeys and establishes the infallible (protected, heavenly) hierarchy which Jehovah wills and sets for the church.
    Mt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

  13. Ken Temple says:

    Again, there is no such thing as an infallible hierarchy set for the church.

  14. Ken Temple says:

    Only God and His Word are infallible.

  15. Ken Temple says:

    Are you a former Roman Catholic, who converted to Islam?

  16. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: Again, there is no such thing as an infallible hierarchy set for the church.”

    Why do you think today’s churches maintain to have the church’s hierarchy but “some unknown unorganised believers” after 2nd century did not?

  17. Ken Temple says:

    There is a discernible line between the closing of the canon of Scripture (by 70 AD or 96 AD) – there were only 2 offices in each church (Acts 14:23; Titus 1:5-7; Philippians 1:1; Acts 20:17, 28; 1 Peter 5:1-4; I Timothy 3)- 1. elders = presbyters (who are also overseers/bishops and pastors) and 2. deacons (servants). Other early non-canonical writings show this also – The Didache (70-120 AD), 1 Clement (96 AD), the Shepherd of Hermas. (120 AD ?)

    and
    when the 3 fold office of a church began. (with Ignatius around 110-117 AD) – taking one of the presbyter-overseers out of the team or college of presbyters and exalting him to be a mono-episcopate or “bishop” that is a one man authority over the council of elders (presbyters).

    Jerome (400 AD) admitted that that was done out of custom, as a practical matter, rather than a command of God. Jerome admitted that presbyters (elders) and bishops (or overseers or episcopoi) were the same office.

    Even that is not what the Roman Catholic Church teaches in the Papacy. (one infallible ruler bishop over all other bishops). Even Cyprian around 255 AD and 86 other bishops objected to Stephen, bishop of Rome’s claim to be “bishop over all other bishops”. The Eastern Orthodox still to this day disagrees with the Roman Church because of this issue.

    see here and please read other related articles there for more info.
    http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/12/evangelical-introduction-to-church_15.html

    http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2010/12/evangelical-introduction-to-church.html

  18. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: there were only 2 offices in each church”

    Of course it is untrue.
    In fact, Matthias is selected in order to maintain the twelve “apostles” (Acts 1:26). The seventy “minor” apostles were authorised by Jesus (Luke 10:1). Certain person of the seventy is a prophet (Acts 21:10).
    2 terms Presbyter (senior) and deacon (junior) are not exclusively set for the church’s office.
    Presbyter (senior) and deacon (junior) are just two generic terms referring to the personal job’s experience. Presbyter is also used for Jewish elders prior to the time of Jesus (Mt 15:2). Deacon is even used for Roman empire (Rom 13:4).
    Rom 13:4 He is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid;

    There are 3 ranks of hierarchy which Jehovah has set for the church. Apostles, prophets and third position with many subsets.
    1Cor 12:28
    And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

  19. Ken Temple says:

    You did not demonstrate that you read and digested the articles I linked to. You are just jumping to other passages that have no relation to the issue; and you are repeating yourself from I Cor. 12:28, which I already showed you the truth of that and the other passages that proves that churches were to have elders-overseers (Acts 14:23; Philippians 1:1) and deacons.

    There are no more apostles or prophets, after the Scripture was finished by 96 AD.

    After the apostolic age (after 100 AD), after the Scriptures are written and complete; people with claims of miracle giftings of miracles, healings, and speaking in tongues are theologically weak and have not demonstrated a convincing argument. Does not meant God does not heal anymore by prayer and His Sovereignty, but the gift of healing in a person that use the gift as they did in Acts and first century, seems to have ceased also.

  20. θ says:

    According to Paul in 1Cor 12:28 God has set governments (Kubernesis). Who are they (names and history) in the 1st century before 96 AD? According to RC, Peter is the 1st Kubernesis known as “Pope”.
    1Cor 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

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