Debate: “Is Jesus only a prophet or is He also God?” (Sam Shamoun vs. Anjem Choudary)

[Note: I have been updating this article over the last 3 days, May 27-29, as I have more time to write and add more. And I may add more later if I have time to write more.]

Be sure to listen/watch the debate as lot of the things I am writing here are assuming you have watched and listened to the whole debate.

Sean Hannity of Fox News needs to take lessons from Sam Shamoun here. If you let Choudary speak, he will expose himself and what Islam really is.

Sam showed a good spirit of “apologetics and agape” by telling Anjem:  “I love you in Jesus name and want you to repent and come to know the true God through Jesus Christ”, even though Anjem wants harsh Sharia law all over the world and supports all the brutal Jihadists terrorists of our day.

Debate:  “Is Jesus only a prophet or is He also God?”  (Sam Shamoun vs. Anjem Choudary) Sam Shamoun did an excellent job of debating against Anjem Choudary.  Sam did an excellent job of showing that the Qur’an affirms the Bible (Surah 5:47); and explaining and defending the Incarnation of Jesus, the Deity of Jesus and the doctrine of the Trinity.  Sam compressed a lot of truth in his defense of the Incarnation, Deity of Christ, and the doctrine of the Trinity, which seemed to be too much for Anjem.   The distinction between oneness of substance/nature/essence and yet threeness of person/personal relationship with one another, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, seemed to go over Anjem’s head.  Sam did a good job of showing how Muslims appeal to mystery many times  (Allah Alim, الله عالم “God, the one who knows”, or  علیم “knowing”, implied, “even though we don’t”) is in many of their own doctrines.

Also:

The Arabic phrase bi-la kayfa (Arabic: بلا كيف) is roughly translated as “without asking how.” It addresses the theological problem in Islam of how to deal with verses in the Qur’an that refer to God (Arabic: الله‎‎ Allāh) as having human characteristics such as the “Hand of God” or the “Face of God.” These verses are problematic because they give God human characteristics, something which is contrary to the Islamic concept of God as being transcendental as evident in the Quranic verse “There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing.”[Surah 42:11)

(from the Wikipedia article on this phrase, “bi-la kayfa”)

The only thing I was confused about was when Sam said Jesus did not say “I am the Messiah”.  It seems that Jesus did say that in John 4:25-26; Mark 14:60-64; and in Matthew 16:16-18 Jesus affirms He is the Messiah, the Son of the living God by His blessing and postive response to Peter.  Maybe Sam meant that Jesus did not say it in all those exact words, “I am the Messiah”.

I was really surprised that Choudary defended the 16th Century forgery of “The Gospel of Barnabas” and confused it with the 2nd Century “Epistle of Pseudo-Barnabas”.   The 16th Century “Gospel of Barnabas” is a forgery and this has been proven.  google it and look up the facts on it.  No serious debater would use this, Shabir Ally  nor Abdullah Kunde nor Abdullah Al Andalousi would not use this obvious forgery.  It even contradicts the Qur’an by denying that Jesus is the Messiah!!  Amazing!

“Jesus confessed, and said the truth: “I am not the Messiah.”

Gospel of Barnabas, 42:2

Choudary knows Sharia law in Islam (and is up front and honest about what Sharia really fully is), but he doesn’t know much about the Bible nor church history. And he did not seem to realize that Surah 5:47 proves that the Bible was not corrupted at the time of Muhammad, the founder of Islam. Surah 5:47 says, “let the people of the Injeel judge by what Allah has revealed therein . . . ” – “therein” points to the Injeel (the Gospel, the New Testament itself).

Again, be sure to listen/watch the debate as lot of the things I am writing here are assuming you have watched and listened to the whole debate.

Two important principles to keep in mind:

1. The Qur’an affirms the Injeel, the Torah, Zobur, at the time of Muhammad (570-632 AD). (Surah 5:46-47; 5:68; 10:94; 2:136; 29:46; 3:3-4; 6:34; 6:115-116; 10:64-65; 18:27)
2. The Qur’an says the disciples of Jesus became uppermost and victorious (Surah 3:55; 61:14) If the disciples of Jesus became the uppermost and victorious, this means that the Muslim claim that the apostle Paul, John’s writings, and Trinitarian Christian “hijacked original Monotheistic Christianity”, actually did not hijack original Christianity, but that the apostle Paul, the apostle John and the other writings of the NT, and Trinitarian Christianity, actually are the original truth of Jesus Christ and His apostles.

One of the best parts is at 2:13:42 where Sam Shamoun quotes from the commentary of Al Qurtabi, on Surah 61:14, and shows that Islamic source as affirming the apostle Paul.

First, Surah 61:14 – Sahih International
“O you who have believed, be supporters of Allah , as when Jesus, the son of Mary, said to the disciples, “Who are my supporters for Allah ?” The disciples said, “We are supporters of Allah .” And a faction of the Children of Israel believed and a faction disbelieved. So We supported those who believed against their enemy, and they became dominant.” (the word translated “dominant” ظاهرین can also be translated “manifested ones”, “obvious ones”, “prominent ones”) – we have this word in Farsi, so I know what it means. )

يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ كُونُوٓاْ أَنصَارَ ٱللَّهِ كَمَا قَالَ عِيسَى ٱبۡنُ مَرۡيَمَ لِلۡحَوَارِيِّـۧنَ مَنۡ أَنصَارِىٓ إِلَى ٱللَّهِ‌ۖ قَالَ ٱلۡحَوَارِيُّونَ نَحۡنُ أَنصَارُ ٱللَّهِ‌ۖ فَـَٔامَنَت طَّآٮِٕفَةٌ۬ مِّنۢ بَنِىٓ إِسۡرَٲٓءِيلَ وَكَفَرَت طَّآٮِٕفَةٌ۬‌ۖ فَأَيَّدۡنَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ عَلَىٰ عَدُوِّهِمۡ فَأَصۡبَحُواْ ظَـٰهِرِينَ (١٤)

Al-Qurtubi, says of Surah 61:14:

“It was said that THIS VERSE was revealed about the apostles of Jesus, may peace and blessing be upon him. Ibn Ishaq stated that of the apostles and disciples that Jesus sent (to preach) there were Peter AND PAUL who went to Rome; Andrew and Matthew who went to the land of the cannibals; Thomas who went to Babel in the eastern lands; Philip who went to Africa; John went to Dac-sos(?) which is the tribe to whom the sleepers of the cave belonged; Jacob went to Jerusalem; Bartholomew went to the lands of Arabia, specifically Al-Hijaz; Simon who went to the Barbarians; Judas and Barthas(?) who went to Alexandria and its surrounding regions.

Allah supported them (the apostles) with evidence so that they prevailed (thahirin)

( ظاهرین) [ I have provided the Arabic word here to the transliteration] meaning they became the party with the upper hand. Just as it is said, “An object appeared on the wall” meaning it is clearly visible (alu-wat) on the wall. Allah, who is glorified and exalted, knows the truth better and to Him is the return and retreat. (Source; translated into English by Dimitrius, bold and capital emphasis ours)

Notice how al-Qurtubi had no qualms in admitting that Paul was a legitimate follower of Christ! If al-Qurtubi is correct, then this means that Paul was one of the followers whom God gave the power to overcome the unbelievers and prevail!” (from Sami Zataari’s quoting of Sam at http://www.answering-christianity.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttal_to_sam_shamoun_41.htm ) [ for some strange reason, I am not able to access the http://www.answering-islam.org site, where Sam’s article is.]

A.  For More on the Council of Nicea of 325 AD:

1.  Overview of the Council of Nicea of 325 AD:

2.  What Really Happened at Nicea? By James White

B.  About the Bible and that it was not corrupt at the time of Muhammad and still is not corrupt:

1.  No one can change the words of God (part 1)

2.  No one can change the words of God (part 2)

3.  The Qur’an proves the Bible is True.

4.  Ibn Ishaq, earliest biographer of Muhammad, wrote that the apostle John wrote the Gospel of John

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About Ken Temple

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a sinner who has been saved by the grace of God alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16), in Christ alone (John 14:6). But a true faith does not stay alone, it should result in change, fruit, good works, and deeper levels of repentance and hatred of my own sins of selfishness and pride. I am not better than you! I still make mistakes and sin, but the Lord is working on me, conforming me to His character. (Romans 8:28-29; 2 Corinthians 3:16-18) When I do sin, I hate the sin as it is an affront to God, and seek His forgiveness in repentance. (Mark 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:7-10; Colossians 3:5-16 ) Praise God for His love for sinners (Romans 5:8), shown by the voluntary coming of Christ and His freely laying down His life for us (John 10:18), becoming flesh/human (John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8), dying for sins of people from all nations, tribes, and cultures (Revelation 5:9), on the cross, in history, rising from the dead (Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 28, Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24; John 20-21; 1 Corinthians chapter 15). His resurrection from the dead proved that Jesus is the Messiah, the eternal Son of God, the word of God from eternity past; and that He was all the gospels say He was and that He is truth and the life and the way to salvation. (John 14:6)
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4 Responses to Debate: “Is Jesus only a prophet or is He also God?” (Sam Shamoun vs. Anjem Choudary)

  1. Sam Shamoun says:

    Brother Ken,

    Just want to clarify what I meant when you ask and write:

    The only thing I was confused about was when Sam said Jesus did not say “I am the Messiah”. It seems that Jesus did say that in John 4:25-26; Mark 14:60-64; and in Matthew 16:16-18 Jesus affirms He is the Messiah, the Son of the living God by His blessing and postive response to Peter. Maybe Sam meant that Jesus did not say it in all those exact words, “I am the Messiah”.

    You nailed it at the end since Jesus never said “I am the Messiah” in those exact words, as Muslims demand of us. Moreover, the Quran itself never has Jesus say it either in those exact words. Appealing to John 4:25-26 to show he did, albeit not directly, which actually make my case for me since Jesus accepted Thomas’ worship and confession of Christ as his Lord and his God. Hope this helps. Lord bless you and all you do.

  2. Sam Shamoun says:

    Clarification and correction. I should have said all three passages you cited work in my favor, e.g. John 4:25-26, Mark 14:61-62 and Matthew 16:16-18, since in none of those examples does Jesus say he is the Messiah in those exact words. Yet who in their right mind would deny that Jesus’ response proves beyond any reasonable that he did accept, and therefore confess, that he is the Messiah the Son of God?

  3. Ken Temple says:

    Thanks Sam!
    That’s what I thought. You did a very good job and it was painful to hear him talk about Constantine and Paul and the gospel of Barnabas – your expressions, and finger tapping while he was talking was great!

  4. Ken Temple says:

    You demonstrated the balance of apologetics (defending the truth) and agape love very well.

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