Answering Sam Shamoun’s questions on 1 John & 2 John regarding the White/Qadhi dialogue

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Sam Shamoun

HERE IS A QUESTION FOR JAMES WHITE AND ALL HIS FAN BOYS WHO SUBSCRIBE TO SOLA WHITIA (“SOLELY WHITE”), SO PAY ATTENTION.

Notice the snarky “Fan Boys” and “Sola Whitia” bombast buzzwords that sinfully angry Shamoun has to constantly apply in his rants and meltdowns.   Just because some of us think that Dr. White’s methods are better than his, he calls us “fanboys”, trying to accuse us of “idolatry” and “man-pleasers”.   

Seeing that the historical context of John’s Epistles, specifically the first and second ones, was one of proto-Gnosticisim, and therefore doesn’t speak to the modern cults of today, would you ever use the following verse to prove that Muhammad was an antichrist?

Of course we can use these verses, at the right time; but you don’t yell it at them at the beginning of trying to witness to people.  All you do Shamoun is yell and get angry and go bombast and snarky on people.  You should be ashamed of your bad witness.  No wonder no Muslims will debate you anymore and many of them accuse you of being mentally and emotionally unstable.  By your sinful behavior, name-calling, bombast, & snarky-ness, you gave them ammunition to use against yourself, unfortunately.  

“Who is a liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? Whoever denies the Father and the Son is the antichrist. No one who denies the Son has the Father; the one who confesses the Son has the Father.” 1 John 2:22-23

Muhammad denied the Fatherhood of God and the divine Sonship of Christ (cf. Q. 5:18; 6:101; 9:30; 19:88-93; 21:26; 39:4; 72:3). However, since John was addressing the proto-Gnostic heretics, and not Muhammad and Islam, would this prove per Sola Whitia that Christians can NEVER use this passage to prove that Muhammad was an antichrist as well?

No; of course those verses applies to Muhammad and Muslims  and Islamic doctrines today; but first we must / should establish an atmosphere where the Muslims will at least listen to our arguments and the gospel.  Even liberal theology is an anti-Christ religion, since it denies the incarnation, the Deity of Christ, the Father and the Son, the Doctrine of the Trinity, etc.  Mormons, Jehovahs Witnesses too.  But we should do evangelism, have hospitality, and establish an environment where we can talk about all those things in a respectful way.   The proper method is not, “you cultist/demons you!” at Mormons nor at Muslims.  Shamoun never seems to obey 1 Peter 3:15 nor Ephesians 4:15 because he ignores half of the verses.  Shamoun totally ignores the “with gentleness and respect” part of 1 Peter 3:15 and the “speaking the truth in love” part of Ephesians 4:15.  There is no love in his methods.  

If you say yes then this means John’s epistles are irrelevant and have nothing to say about our current situation.

I say no; so you are just wrong.  But we are talking about the timing and appropriateness of when to use those verses.   Given that Dr. White explained the Deity of Christ and the doctrine of the Trinity, he defended the doctrine of “the Father and the Son” and the incarnation in those meetings, and many many other times. 

Moreover, since according to Sola Whitia 2 John 1:7-11 was dealing with proto-Gnosticism does this mean if Muhammad lived at that time John would have encouraged the house churches/assembles to invite him in, give him safe lodging, support his ministry and permit him to teach his message without ever refuting or challenging him? Can White and his fanboys answer these questions honestly without tap dancing around them?

House churches on Sundays in the first century, are different than separated public church buildings in 21st Century on a Tuesday evening which is not a worship service on Sunday (like liberals and Chrislam types do) or prayer service or teaching time (which automatically makes it totally different than first century house churches), but a planned outreach to better understand Muslims from their own perspective, build a relationship, and be able to talk to them in a respectful way without scaring them away and scaring them into their closed off communities. No one said “give them safe lodging or support Yasir Qadhi financially”.  Dr. White shared the gospel, and doctrines of the Trinity, the Deity of Christ, original sin, the cross and resurrection, repentance, faith in Christ.  You need to repent of your sinful anger, bad methodology, and your slander of a Christian brother. 

A Biblical well taught church is suppossed to be mature enough to handle the kind of thing they did on that Tuesday evening.   Especially since anyone that knows Dr. White’s years of ministry and many other debates, and the 2 debates AFTER the Yasir Qadhi dialogue, any normal believer should understand White’s position and see the good in it and see the balance of apologetics/theology/truth along with graciousness/respect/love.   It is called evangelism and pre-evangelism and dialogue.  The elders of that local church have every right to do that kind of outreach.  Some churches would chose not do that kind of that outreach or dialogue, but that was no reason to slander and trash the whole thing. 

Now for the rest of you who do not subscribe to Sola Whitia [what’s the purpose of that snark and stupid comment that is not even true, just your own bombast ?

, do you see just how stupid, desperate and wicked White’s butchering of God’s Word happens to be?

 

No, Dr. White did a great job of defending the truth and did it with respect and integrity and love for the Muslims; which you do not do anymore.  Repent of your sinful anger, Sam.  

You did a good job against Anjem Choudary in 2015, (and vs. Shabir Ally years ago, one debate) but in the comboxes and facebook comments, you have lots of sinful anger; along with your “crusade” against Dr. White in the past 6-8 months. 

Also, see my earlier post on 2 John verses 9-11.

Also, see the 2 hour program linked above with Dr. White, Dr. Michael Brown, and Robert Spencer of “Jihad Watch” in the second hour.

Also, see recent Dividing Line programs:

June 19, 2017

June 16, 2017

June 13, 2017

 

 

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About Ken Temple

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a sinner who has been saved by the grace of God alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16), in Christ alone (John 14:6). But a true faith does not stay alone, it should result in change, fruit, good works, and deeper levels of repentance and hatred of my own sins of selfishness and pride. I am not better than you! I still make mistakes and sin, but the Lord is working on me, conforming me to His character. (Romans 8:28-29; 2 Corinthians 3:16-18) When I do sin, I hate the sin as it is an affront to God, and seek His forgiveness in repentance. (Mark 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:7-10; Colossians 3:5-16 ) Praise God for His love for sinners (Romans 5:8), shown by the voluntary coming of Christ and His freely laying down His life for us (John 10:18), becoming flesh/human (John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8), dying for sins of people from all nations, tribes, and cultures (Revelation 5:9), on the cross, in history, rising from the dead (Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 28, Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24; John 20-21; 1 Corinthians chapter 15). His resurrection from the dead proved that Jesus is the Messiah, the eternal Son of God, the word of God from eternity past; and that He was all the gospels say He was and that He is truth and the life and the way to salvation. (John 14:6)
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23 Responses to Answering Sam Shamoun’s questions on 1 John & 2 John regarding the White/Qadhi dialogue

  1. Robert says:

    Hey,

    I’m not here to defend Sam Shamoun, but a see that you are harsh on Sam for being angry and unkind. Do you hold Dr James White to those standards as he attacks other Christian leaders?

    I hope the link works..I have noticed how harsh and hostile Dr White reacts to those Christians that differ on him on many topics..I noticed this long before all of this drams started..Will you also address this meanness on part of Dr White?

    Like I said Im not Sam Shamouns apologist nor am I hating on Dr White…But still White is not innocent either!

    • Ken Temple says:

      From what I have seen and heard, in listening to Dr. White regularly for the past probably 20 years ( I first heard him around 1995-1996 on the Bible Answer Man broadcast, and listed to his show more regularly from around 1998 onward), Dr. White sticks to issues and I heard him stick to issues, texts, doctrines, arguments, when dealing with Dr. Allen, Leighton Flowers, William Lane Craig, Mike Licona, and Andy Stanley. I never heard Dr. White do all the sinful anger and name-calling that Sam Shamoun does. Dr. White is strong and passionate, but he does not do what Sam Shamoun, and the Brannon Howse and Worldview Weekend folks have done by their slanderous attacks.

      Dr. Allen got the whole thing started negatively when a few years ago, he accused Dr. White of being a “hyper-Calvinist”, which is wrong and either Dr. Allen did not understand what a “hyper-Calvinist” is, or he was lying about Dr. White.

      • Mark Johnson says:

        White is a hyper-calviist. In his debate with Bryson and in his video rebuttal to Geisler’s “Chosen But Free Second Edition” he said Arminians need the Holy Spirit ito accept Calvinism. The implication is if you’re not a Calvinist you don’t have the Holy Spirit. That is hyper-Calvinism.

      • Ken Temple says:

        No, he (James White) is not a hyper-Calvinist; and that’s not exactly the definition of hyper-Calvinism; I have heard him in person tell other Calvinists it is wrong to say that Arminians are not Christians. Obviously his friendship with Dr. Michael Brown, an Arminian and Charismatic – proves you wrong.

        You would have to provide exact time frames of specific videos so one could check out your assertion about the Bryson and Geisler claim. To understand that God must reveal something to a Christian in His Sovereignty and timing does not mean that they don’t have the Holy Spirit at all. It took me 20 years of wrestling with the issue to come to the doctrines of grace (Calvinism), but I was born-again earlier. 20 years earlier.

    • Julie Carn says:

      I agree with the above. Dr. White is harsh himself when he disagrees with people. He can be rude to others. The Gospel is sufficient; the Holy Spirit effectually brings people to Christ. He does not need us to lay any ground work to share the Gospel. Of course it should be done in love; or why even do it. Interfaith dialogue is unscriptural; there can be no defense for it. Sam Shamoun’s behavior is terrible. From all I’ve seen him write I would say he should examine his own heart very carefully. Christians should speak with grace, not vitriol.

      • Ken Temple says:

        All basically true; (except I don’t think Dr. White is too harsh; if you follow all the things that lead up to what disagreements he has with other’s theology, etc.) – but sometimes we need wisdom on how we go about sharing the gospel with certain people. That God does not need us is true; but usually “laying the ground work” or establishing some kind of relationship so that the other side will listen is also Biblical. Jesus broke down the walls of prejudice first by what He did with the woman at the well in John 4, and then gently got to the gospel later. And Philippians 2:5-8; John 1:1-5; 1:14, etc. shows us that the incarnation includes Him coming and being conceived by a virgin and the relational groundwork was laid for 30 years, before He started preaching the gospel. Given the toxic atmosphere and fear, (between Christians and Muslims) laying the groundwork is necessary. The gospel is sufficient yes, it was shared and done in the proper way.

  2. Ken Temple says:

    I told Sam Shamoun privately by email these things several years ago, about his anger and bad methods, but he would not listen to me. (on Paul Williams’ websites “Blogging Theology” (but Williams recently left his website to 2 other Muslims now), when we debated with Muslims in the comboxes). I even praised him for his content when he sticks to issues and texts. I even told Shamoun that he did a good job vs. Anjem Choudary in a debate. see the link above under “related” at the end of my article.

    • Robert says:

      Fair enough, but do you not see how Muslims are now using Dr Whites arguments to defend their positions against other Christian apologists? They are using him..He is inadvertently doing a lot more damage than he is good.imo

      • Ken Temple says:

        Shamoun, Howse, Dakdok are doing the damage to themselves.

      • Robert says:

        Well…Except Muslims are not using Sam’s, Howse and Dakdoks materiel to defend Islam..But they are using Dr James White material to defend their positions..

        Anyhow..Take care

      • Ken Temple says:

        Yes they are – look at “Blogging Theology”.
        This is just one of them:
        https://bloggingtheology.net/2017/06/13/sam-shamoun-a-hero-to-muslims/

      • Robert says:

        Good Lord..You don’t even see it..Do you.. He sounds like HE has taken a page out of Dr White arguments…

      • Ken Temple says:

        Sam and I have interacted for years in the comboxes of “BloggingTheology” (Paul Williams, a British convert to Islam, recently at beginning of Ramadan, gave up the web-site to 2 other Muslims, Yahya Snow and Ijaz Ahmed) – Sam’s anger and name-calling and bombast and yelling at the Muslims was constantly used against him to not even listen to him. They dismiss him easy because of his anger and behavior and name calling and the Muslims ask, “where is the fruit of the Holy Spirit, that you guys talk about?”

        Muslims who are peaceful and not Jihadi types are asking, “what is all this talk about the power of the Holy Spirit for holiness and character, if most of the so called evangelism to Muslims in the conservative Christian USA is like Shamoun, Dakdok, Howse type of methods?

  3. Sam Shamoun says:

    Hey fanboy, being so blind in your love of your master you don’t see how your answer obliterates White. Anyway fanboy, when you man up you can come to my paltalk room so we can see how well you do in defending your reply to my questions to your master and his brand of Sola Whitia. BTW, you should check out the fb pages since everyone is elated that Spencer destroyed White and exposed him for the fake Islamic apologist that he is. It’s all downhill for White and you fanboys.

    • Ken Temple says:

      Brother Sam Shamoun,
      I think you are blind in this area, not to see how your sinful anger and name-calling and bombast and snarky nature and pugnaciousness does nothing to help Muslims see the problems with Islam. You turn them off so that they won’t even give you a hearing. I am too busy discipling and teaching former Muslims and witnessing one on one to Muslims, and being in hospitality settings to come to your little pal talk room. Everyone is not elated because you delete anyone ( 95 % )who disagrees with you and only those who are your “fanboys” are allowed (mostly).

      • I was blocked from commenting on Sam’s Facebook page simply because I ‘liked’ a fairly benign comment someone made. He called me out and promptly blocked me – even before I had actually commented on anything. For all his talk of his paltalk, unfortunately, he and Howse do not want a dialogue on this subject; but rather a monologue. A monologue laced with angry name-calling and general invective. Its like having a chat with a New Atheist troll and is behavior totally unbefitting of a Christian. 😦

      • Ken Temple says:

        Exactly. You are right; Thanks Andy.

    • Ken Temple says:

      I already answered your (Sam Shamoun’s) questions in this post and also the earlier one on 2 John.

      https://apologeticsandagape.wordpress.com/2017/06/19/2-john-9-11-in-light-of-the-controversy-over-dr-whites-outreach-to-muslims/

  4. Ken Temple says:

    I thought Sam Shamoun was too aggressive and angry back in 2012, in the com-boxes here; but I did not know what to do with his methodology of pugnacious “in your face” style. Later I emailed him privately several times to stop that kind of stuff, but he just shot back with same style.

    If Muslims sin by name-calling and anger; we should not respond in kind. Shamoun constantly violates 1 Peter 3:8-9.

    8 To sum up, all of you be harmonious, sympathetic, brotherly, kindhearted, and humble in spirit; 9 not returning evil for evil or insult for insult, but giving a blessing instead; for you were called for the very purpose that you might inherit a blessing. 10 For . . .

    see the 225 comments here back in 2012.
    http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2012/01/quran-never-says-text-of-bible-was.html

  5. Julie Carn says:

    Ken, according to Scripture, the proper way to share the Gospel is just to share it. The Lord Jesus was not laying “relationship groundwork” in not starting his ministry for 30 years. This has to do with the prophecies about him and him fulfilling all the law. This idea that the Gospel needs help of some kind is unscriptural. Jesus was not gently sharing the Gospel, he was showing her her sinfulness/her need of a Savior. The law convicts and the Gospel of grace heals. Man’s wisdom is not required, nor authorized, when it comes to the Gospel or any biblical doctrines. Of course there is nothing wrong with having relationships with unbelievers and then sharing the Gospel, But for anyone to suggest that we have to “till the field” so to speak, before sharing the Gospel, is patently unbiblical. The the MOST important issue, however, is that Christians are to love God first. This is primary, and sharing the Gospel comes after that. Therefore, our lives should reflect a love for God and his commandments and everything else is secondary. Not confronting blasphemous lies which the Imam was saying at the “dialogue” was wrong. Error should be confronted and God’s character and Word should never be allowed to be grossly misrepresented like it was. Not even sharing the Gospel and wanting to be a good witness for the sake of the lost comes before honoring and loving the Sovereign Lord.

    • Ken Temple says:

      “just share it” – there is so many other principles in the 66 Books of the Bible that go along with that; that it is shocking that a Christian would say it like that. Sorry, but God becoming man (Philippians 2:5-8; John 1:1-5; 1-14), and the process and His humanity IS part of the gospel. (that the eternal Son / Word became Flesh/human is part of the gospel)

      The Jews would not have understood Jesus if He showed up 5 minutes before the cross and said, “Ok, I am the eternal Son/Word and ready to die on the cross for the sins of all the nations”; I am ready; etc. There was a definite “laying the ground work” there of time and process.

      In John 4, Jesus first broke down barriers by even asking her to use her tool that she used to get the water; it was an amazing thing, which opened her up to listen, “how is that you, being a Jew (and a man), ask me for a drink?”

      7 There *came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus *said to her, “Give Me a drink.” 8 For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food. 9 Therefore the Samaritan woman *said to Him, “How is it that You, being a Jew, ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?” (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 10 Jesus answered and said to her, “If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, ‘Give Me a drink,’ you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water.”

      I agree with John Piper’s comments here:

      “Notice what he did. First, he went through Samaria. Second, he sent the disciples to buy food (presumably touched and prepared by unclean Samaritans) so that he could be alone. They didn’t all have to go. Third, he sat on the well to be fully conspicuous and unavoidable. Fourth, he asked a woman — whom he knew was an unclean, impure, heretical, disreputable Samaritan — for a drink. Not for permission to get a drink, but for a drink from her bucket.

      He is standing by the fountain marked “Colored” watching a black woman fill her water bottle and then, for all to see, says, “Can I have a drink from your water bottle?” She says, at the end of verse 9, “Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.” But more literally it says, Jews don’t “use together” with Samaritans. You can’t be asking me to use the same bucket. That isn’t done.”

      http://www.desiringgod.org/messages/you-will-never-be-thirsty-again

      The whole sermon is great.

      Too many conservative Christians don’t share their faith with others and don’t try to establish relationships and friendships in order to share the gospel with unbelievers and especially with people who are different, like Muslims.

      I am amazed at how weak and babyish (like liberal snowflakes) many conservative Christians are that they cannot allow a Muslim to explain something from his point of view; listen, and then respond. That is what Dr. White did an excellent way.

      whatever your comment “tilling the field” means, if it means having wisdom, knowing your audience, breaking barriers, establishing a relationship where the other side is willing to at least listen and not yell, etc., then your statement is patently unBiblical.

      Dr. White was applying the principles of 1 Corinthians 9:19-23 in a good way; in the USA. Missionaries learn language and culture and it takes about 2 years to do that first before they can really share the gospel. I know that because I have actually done that, experientially. So that, in itself, is part of the process or “tilling the ground”; but only the Spirit of God can break through stony hearts, even if one learns another language and culture and has great illustrations in their culture; I agree that it takes God’s Sovereign grace. (John 6:44; Acts 16:14) Otherwise, you are just speaking into the air and people from other cultures, etc. will not understand you.

      By the way, thanks for your comments Julie.
      🙂

      PS
      the MOST important issue, however, is that Christians are to love God first.
      agreed; and Dr. White has said that many times over the last 20 + years. Have you listened to him much? He has said that many times when the methods of the seeker sensitive church growth movement are put above doctrine and theology.

  6. Julie Carn says:

    “Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem? I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish” (Lk. 13:4,5) Not very gentle. 🙂

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