Debate: Can God Become a man? James White vs. Abdullah Kunde

around 2:21:00 Abdullah talks about certainty – yaqin – یقین

Interesting that that is the word used in Surah 4:157 – “for certain they did not kill Him” Yet, established historical fact is against the Qur’an on this.

In Abdullah’s closing statement at the end:
2:25:56 – “ how God gave Himself, according to the Christians, and you know, I mean, that is beautiful . . . “ but you know what, we have so much more to be thankful for . . . air, food . . . ability to stand here and speak . . . we need to be more thankful . . . for existence itself . . . “

“Now, I certainly do appreciate . . . I do appreciate the idea God being so holy that we must have a mediator is beautiful, in fact its quite humbling, and I will be quite frank with you, I find it hard to listen to that 15 or 12 minutes of sermon, and not feel emotionally impressed.”  Abdullah Kunde

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About Ken Temple

I am a follower of Jesus Christ. I am a sinner who has been saved by the grace of God alone (Ephesians 2:8-9), through faith alone (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:28; 4:1-16), in Christ alone (John 14:6). But a true faith does not stay alone, it should result in change, fruit, good works, and deeper levels of repentance and hatred of my own sins of selfishness and pride. I am not better than you! I still make mistakes and sin, but the Lord is working on me, conforming me to His character. (Romans 8:28-29; 2 Corinthians 3:16-18) When I do sin, I hate the sin as it is an affront to God, and seek His forgiveness in repentance. (Mark 1:15; 2 Corinthians 7:7-10; Colossians 3:5-16 ) Praise God for His love for sinners (Romans 5:8), shown by the voluntary coming of Christ and His freely laying down His life for us (John 10:18), becoming flesh/human (John 1:1-5; 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8), dying for sins of people from all nations, tribes, and cultures (Revelation 5:9), on the cross, in history, rising from the dead (Romans 10:9-10; Matthew 28, Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24; John 20-21; 1 Corinthians chapter 15). His resurrection from the dead proved that Jesus is the Messiah, the eternal Son of God, the word of God from eternity past; and that He was all the gospels say He was and that He is truth and the life and the way to salvation. (John 14:6)
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11 Responses to Debate: Can God Become a man? James White vs. Abdullah Kunde

    • Sam Shamoun says:

      Hey bro, I posted this on badmanna’s blog and thought it might be of interest to you. Williams just posted this in another feeble and desperate attempt to refute the Deity of Christ: http://bloggingtheology.org/2014/02/16/are-you-sure-that-jesus-is-god/

      What makes this rather ironic is that three of the four verses are actually applied to Christ in the NT!

      For instance, Psalm 102:25-27 is applied to Christ in Hebrews 1:10-12. Moreover, Malachi 3:1 and Isaiah 40:3 are cited in relation to Jesus being Yahweh God and the Lord of the Temple whom a voice/messenger was sent to prepare for his way and appearance, with that voice/messenger being identified as John the Baptist (Mark 1:1-11; Matthew 3:1-6, 11-17; 11:11 (1-10, 12-15); Luke 3:1:-6, 15-17; 7:27 (16-26, 28); John 1:14-15, 1:23, 26-36; 3:22-36). This means that the immutable God spoken of in Malachi 3:6 and Isaiah 40:28 happens to be none other than the Lord Jesus Christ himself!

  1. θ says:

    (i) Is Jesus a god because he can “do” some divine works? No. Jesus admits the divine work is not his works but God’s involved himself, Mary (virgin birth), his followers (resurrection by hands of Peter and Paul for instance) with greater works than that thru Jesus.

    (ii) Is Jesus a god because he is divine by nature in the past? No. Jesus never gets a religous service from previous Prophets.
    It is bisarre to Jews that Abraham’s reaction when seeing Jesus’ day is just giving a smile. Being glad is not sufficient as deification.
    It is bisarre to Jews that when seeing Jesus’ glory Isaiah just addresses God and Spirit who send him as Messenger to Jews. Isaiah just dismisses preexistence of Jesus.

    (iii) Is Jesus a god because he receives a proper deification from others? No. Jesus never gets Latreauo (religious service) from the others, not even from Paul who oftentimes talks about Jesus’ superiority over mere mortals.

    (iv) Is Jesus a god because he gets a reverence by men, angels and demons, even such a “cosmic reverence” in 2nd coming? No. No matter how much it is, yet the reverence isn’t sufficient for deification.
    In Afterlife, Paul also gets convinced that all Christians shall be made omniscient and ominpotent, hence they shall be able to judge the unseen angels and demons, and shall be kings.

    (v) Is Jesus a god because he is called “God” by God? No. The New Testament never specifically calls Jesus “God”, not even once.
    Moreover, when Jews pressure Jesus to openly claim a divinity (John 10:35), Jesus just declines by rather stating he is just the Son.

    (vi) Is Jesus a god because he is called “figurative God” by God (as Moses and kings in the Old Testaments)? No. Neither Jesus nor other citations of the New Testament ever specifically calls Jesus “God”, not even once.
    For instance, it is the kings of the Old Testament that get addressed by Psalmists “O, God, thy throne” that Heb 1:8 referenced. It is event at time when Jesus was not yet sent, or at time when God still spoke thru Prophets (not thru son).

    (vii) Is Jesus a god because he is “one” with the Father? No. If Jesus were one with the Father he would not have still prayed to the Father to give him back a “glory” before the world began.

    (viii) Is Jesus a god because he is called “the God of me” by Thomas? No. God is not seen, not got touchable, not made of flesh, not got nailed or speared.
    Jesus response to Thomas just negates Thomas’ careless exclamation as he rebukes quickly as much as “thou has seen me but thou believed me what?”

    (ix) Is Jesus a god because he is called the “Word” by John 1:1 ? No. The Word is inherent attribute of God. Otherwise, God must have been always silent or totally speechless since the beginning.

    (x) Is Jesus a god because he is called the “One Lord” by Paul ? No. The term “Lord” refers to a specific Hebrew word “Adon” for king, angels, et cetera, not to “Adonay” for Jehovah.
    The word “Lord” (Kurios) in the passage of Phil 2:11, 1Cor.8:6, and Eph.4:5 is just “Adon” in Hebrew, and can’t be Adonay. The title “God the Father” in the passage of Phil 2:11 must imply 2 meanings “God” and the “Lord” (Adonay). Otherwise, if Jesus were “one Adonay” (per 1Cor.8:6 and Eph.4:5), then as worse consequence the Father can’t be Adonay anymore, hence the Father lost his divinity. Trinitarians would have stripped divinity of the Father as well as of Spirit, if a crucial phrase “One Lord” (Eis Kurios) in 1Cor.8:6 and Eph.4:5 were referenced to Jesus as “one” Adonay.

    (xi) Is Jesus a god because he shall be called “Mighty God” in 2nd coming? No. The prophesy of Isaiah 9:6 can’t be applied to Jesus in the future. A prophesied son shall be a Prince, whereas Christians shall be more higher as Kings (Rev 1:6) above Prince at 2nd coming.

  2. Ken Temple says:

    believe in the works that Jesus did, which demonstrate He and the Father are one in nature/essence/substance – One God, but as Father and Son, 2 persons in that context – John 10:37-41 (larger context from john 10:27)

  3. Ken Temple says:

    kurios in Greek is used for Yahweh יהוה , which demonstrates Jesus is God by nature/substance/essence.

  4. Ken Temple says:

    Revelation 1:6 means we are a kingdom of priests, not “kings”.

  5. Ken Temple says:

    The New Testament never specifically calls Jesus “God”, not even once.

    No; you are wrong.
    John 1:1
    Romans 9:5
    John 1:18
    1 John 5:20
    John 20:28

    2 Peter 1:2 “our God and Savior Jesus Christ”
    Titus 2:13 – “our great God and Savior Jesus Christ”

    Hebrews 1:8 – but of the Son, He says, “Your throne, O God . . . “

  6. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: believe in the works that Jesus did, which demonstrate He and the Father are one in nature/essence/substance”

    As Jesus predicted, Peter and Paul demonstrate with a greater work of miracles than that of Jesus. Do they have a greater substance of divinity than the Father?
    Jn 14
    12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

    “Ken Temple says: kurios in Greek is used for Yahweh יהוה , ”

    Greek language has limitation that can’t make a crucial difference between “Adonay” (the Lord, that is for Jehovah) and “Adon” (the lord, that is for mortals).

    “Ken Temple says: Revelation 1:6 means we are a kingdom of priests, not “kings”.”

    Still, Jesus shall be lower than kings of the earth in Rev 1:5 and Rev 1:6.
    Rev 1
    5 First begotten of the dead, and the prince of the Kings of the earth (ἄρχων τῶν βασιλέων τῆς γῆς archōn tōn basileōn tēs gēs).6 And hath made us Kings and priests unto God.

    “Ken Temple says: John 1:1 Romans 9:5 John 1:18 1John 5:20 John 20:28 2Peter 1:2 “our God and Savior Jesus Christ” Titus 2:13 – “our great God and Savior Jesus Christ” Hebrews 1:8 – but of the Son, He says, “Your throne, O God . . . “”

    John 1:1 refers to the divine speech of God.
    Otherwise, could God have been speechless?

    Romans 9:5 refers to the flesh.
    Could God been a flesh?

    John 1:18 refers to “bosom” that may mean a negative fate, being casting out, being thrown away with curse (compare the bosom with Ps 74:11).
    Son is a group of plural people. It is as Son-kind or Son-class in numbers that come out of Jehovah’s bosom, including God’s right hand (that is Jewish kings).
    Among the son, there’s a bad king whom Jehovah plucked out of his “bosom”. Despite that, both the believers and bad kings coming out Jehovah’s bosom does not mean having many divinities.
    Ps 74
    11 Why withdrawest thou thy hand, even thy right hand? pluck it out of thy bosom.
    Isa 40
    11 He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young.

    1John 5:20 tells about the Father whose Jesus is his son.
    John 20:28-29 Jesus rebukes Thomas’ careless exclamation. A seen touchable flesh is not God.
    2Peter 1:1 refers to the righteousness of God. Contrarily Jesus offers grace, not righteousness.
    Titus 2:13 refers to the great God whose face shall be seen finally without causing death (Rev 22:4) for His servants who render Latreauo to Him (Rev 22:3).
    Hebrews 1:8 refers to the ancient kings of Psalmists at time when God still spoke thru Prophets. But during “last day” (when God spoke thu Jesus) Jesus is not yet a king of Psalmists.

  7. Ken Temple says:

    Revelation 1:5 is saying Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth.
    ὁ ἄρχων τῶν βασιλέων τῆς γῆς

    But Revelation 1:6 is saying
    and He made us a kingdom of priests to God . . .

    καὶ ἐποίησεν ἡμᾶς βασιλείαν ἱερεῖς τῷ θεῷ καὶ πατρὶ αὐτοῦ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν

    you are using the Greek text behind KJV –
    The Greek text behind the King James Version is inferior to the older eclectic Greek text behind the NASB, NIV, RSV, and ESV.

  8. Ken Temple says:

    John 20:28-29 – Jesus did not rebuke Thomas, but rather commended him; and also blessed those who will believe without touching, seeing and believing.

    Romans 9:5 – God made manifest in the flesh, yes – John 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8

  9. θ says:

    “Ken Temple says: Revelation 1:5 is saying Jesus is the ruler of the kings of the earth. ὁ ἄρχων τῶν βασιλέων τῆς γῆς”

    In Greek power stratum, although prince (archon) is a ruler, yet is lower than Kings (basileon).

    “Ken Temple says: John 20:28-29 – Jesus did not rebuke Thomas, but rather commended him; and also blessed those who will believe without touching, seeing and believing. Romans 9:5 – God made manifest in the flesh, yes – John 1:14; Philippians 2:5-8”

    Jesus just blesses those who believe in the unseen God who is not made of flesh and bones.
    You misinterpret a good manifestation in the flesh prior to piercing (John 1:14 and Phil 2:7) and after the piercing.
    How can the incorruptible God be manifested in the corruptible flesh that has a marred visage, “eternal” scars, blemished mark of strips, as well as hole of piercing?

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